Reloading Terminology

[fm1947]

here is 3 that I would like your input only one do I use, when I get a new gun or barrel I start me reloading for accuracy I fist take a empty case with no primer I then push a bullet into case as far as I can by hand then put in and move bolt forward until it hits the lands then tap bolt handle by hand until it closes now that puts me at the lands, now I take my hornady bullet comparator and measure but then I zero the calipers at that jam point, then I can seat some at .000 that represents at the lands then I go .030 deaper that gives me what I call either .030 out of lands or a .030 jump.

My question is some say they or .010 into the lands?

So there is three terms I here
First out of lands
Second a jump
Third into lands, not sure what they mean by this.

 

[Gregg Jacob]

The term jump is when the bullet is .010 away from the lands and jammed is when it's .010 pushed into the lands. Hope this helps

 

[fm1947]

nope the part about .010 jammed , jammed is jammed against lands I would think how could you jam to .010 if you dont know where the lands are.

I know this is simple but I think we all might have different understanding possibly, Thaty is why I want to hear what more say Thanks Gregg

 

[snert]

I see what you are saying when you mention going "deeper" .030. You are saying making the bullet "deeper into the case by .030", thereby "jumping .030". In that sense you are correct. If you seat it deaper into the case, having found the lands (.000), you are "jumping".
Now, if you have found the lands and refer to that as .000, and now make a cartridge with the bullet seated tightly in the case enough to not push back into the case as it is inserted into the chamber, and that cartridge is .030 LONGER, (which is alot by the way), it would be called "jammed" or in other words, the ogive of the bullet is now some measurement "into" the lands. That condition is called jammed.

Hope that helped

 

[fm1947]

okay if in the beginning I jammed the bullet to begin with it has marks on the ogive and is as deep as it can go then how could I go .030 longer, I jammed in the beginning, see what i mean.

 

[fm1947]

so your saying that you can put a bullet in tight and go even further once you have hit the lands and if it is tight in the case you can go further in with out moving bullet I will have to try that, seems to me it cant go, if i can seat a sized case by moving bolt forward just seemd same things going to happen unless you have alot of crimp on it, interesting.

Okay got it I made one.015 longer then original bump on lands I didnt think it would go further but it does , pretty tight, Thanks snert

 

[BoydAllen]

The point where a bullet touches the origin of the rifling, a point on the angled part of the rifling where it begins at the front of the chamber, is determined without neck tension. There are several methods. I have a gauge that Sinclair sells that requires a fired case, a bullet, and uses an adapter that fits in the rear action bridge of a bolt action, and which works in conjunction with a rod and a couple of stop collars.

In the correct use of the word, which has been widely misused, jam is the maximum length that a bullet may be loaded to, without being pushed back as the round is chambered. It depends on neck tension (difference between sized and loaded neck diameter), interior neck and bullet coefficients of friction, thickness of the neck, and the length of a bullet's engagement in the case neck.

Jump is the amount that a bullet is seated short of touch, which is the same as out of the lands. Into the rifling or longer than touch means exactly the latter.

The shape of a particular bullet's ogive and the throat or leade angle of the barrel determine how many thousandths there are between touch and jam.

When one says that a bullet is seated so man thousandths off of jam, he may still be longer than touch, or not (because of the distance between jam and touch).

Beware of taking advice given on the internet. Learn to do your own load workups, loading at the range, using wind flags, and a chronograph. Fellows that come to the internet asking for a good load, and then load that exact load and shoot it, take a great risk, because of the extreme variations in the pressure that a given load will produce in different barrels and chambers, and the variations in speed of different lots of powder, and the differences in weight of different brands of brass that result in significantly different volumes and hence pressures. If you use a case of smaller volume, a powder from a fast lot, a hotter primer, in a chamber with a shorter throat, and a tighter bore, that the fellow that you got the load from, they can add up to a lot of extra pressure on top of what may already have been a hot load. Don't go there.

 

[21shooter]

Hi, FM 1947 Did You measure after you jamed the .015 long?
Is it still .015 long? Thanks, John

 

[fm1947]

Yes that was the first thing I did and I also checked it with my bullet comparator .017 I was turning the seating die mic. rather quickly I didnt care much what it read on calipers because I didnt measure the bullets to seperate by length I allways go by the comparator.

 

[bozo699]

fm1947,
sounds like your getting it, I will just add terminology I use and others also. When I use a tool like a hornady coal tool and push the bullet in to where it just touches the lands I call that just kissing the lands if you seat out any further than that it's called Jamming or jammed if you seat in any further than that it is called Jumping the bullet. Boyd Allen has a very good and very valid point, I usually never give out my pet loads, I will share what bullet,powder,primer,case combo but I usually never give the exact powder charge I use. As Boyd pointed out it can be very dangerous. It is up to all of us to use the manufactures load data and cautiously work the loads up from there. Never take someones recipe and just take for granite it will work in your firearm. Some of my firearms are many grains above max loads according to the manufacturers load data, and some of my firearms can't reach the manufacturers max loads without signs of pressure. Hope this helps some
Wayne.

 

[zcrackshot]

From your explanation of how you find the lands, you're already "jammed" quite a bit. An earlier statement said it best when saying that finding the lands is only TOUCHING the lands, not using your bolt to force the bullet in farther. The bolt has a cam action that will force the bullet into the lands when closed and this action is "jamming" the bullet an untold amount into the rifling. The amount by which you have now "jammed" the bullet into the rifling would be determined by the amount of neck tension which was present on that particular case and bullet. The land marks on the ogive are further proof that the bullet has entered the rifling a significant amount. If you could measure the length of the marks then that would be your jam length. I seat most of my loads with a certain brand of bullet well into the lands as this is where they tend to shoot most accurately. For each scenario it will change without question. Sounds to me like the only way you'll really get it figured out is to purchase some sort of tool to help you TOUCH the lands instead of find how far you can JAM the bullet into the case with the bolt? I guess until we all use "reloading terminology" the exact same then none of the terms will make perfect sense?

 

[fm1947]

Bozo, Absolutely thanks all of you for your input, gives me an idea what evryone else is doing and how their doing it and what they call it, sounds like a riddle.

 

[snert]

Boyd nailed it! +1 on what he says.

Get a tool to measure OAL to the lands (I use Sinclair tools personally) and do not use the bolt to force the bullet in. Yikes! "Jamming" further could really up the pressure!

Thanks Boyd, for the clearest and safest explanation!

Regards,
Snert

 

[fm1947]

I am glad I posted this question, Thanks to all

 

[fm1947]

One more thing anyone use this tool and have you seen a significant difference after useing it
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=220200

 

[bozo699]

One more thing anyone use this tool and have you seen a significant difference after useing it
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=220200

Yes I bought one of these tools,...you don't want it. It indexes off the tip of the bullet, you can only check loaded cartridges not empty cases with it. It was a complete waste of money! I bought the sinclair and am completely happy with it, I think German uses the neco, rcbs makes one that some like , I did not as much as the sinclair,Audett used to make one and I know there are others I just can't remember them. Trust me you would be better off rolling your cases on a glass table top than to use this Hornady tool, but if you hell bent on it I will sell you mine for $80.00 shipped, its the same as new I played with it for a couple of days : Hornady's c.o.a.l tool is just like the old stoney point and that is what you need to tell when your bullet is touching the lands.
Wayne.

 

[fm1947]

no just curious, I will read about the sinclair tool, the whole idea of the tool is to ck run out and that the bullet is straight in the case.

 

[bozo699]

fm1947,
I am sorry about my last response, our internet was out @ work so I used my smart phone. I just now read my last post to you and can barley make sense of it myself ??? I guess you got the gist that I don't think much of the concentricity tool that hornady makes, I thought it would be the greatest thing since peanut butter, and it is a novel idea, its just didn't work as I thought it would. However hornadys c.o.a.l tool is a good piece of equipment in my opinion and will get you the correct measurement needed for you coal, which was your original post question. Zcrackshot is correct we have to use the same terminology or we all will be lost in the conversation. I have a extremely tough time with abbreviations, after a year or so on this forum I am picking up on the more common ones but still struggle with some, and sometimes have to break down and look like the dummy that I am and ask what the heck are you referring to ??? I wish you the best of luck with your seating issues. Oh and btw, fwiw, imho, this was a good thread LOL :
Wayne.

 

[fm1947]

Wayne, got it no problem, but you got me on this one whats this mean, fwiw, imho, I hate that stuff,

I am retired, senior ctizen, Veteran 1966 to 1970, Christian, Republican and I am not politically correct , and I saw someone in here who their signature said (Liberalism is a mental disorder ) I agree with that also.

Frank

 

[bozo699]

Wayne, got it no problem, but you got me on this one whats this mean, fwiw, imho, I hate that stuff,

I am retired, senior ctizen, Veteran 1966 to 1970, Christian, Republican and I am not politically correct , and I saw someone in here who their signature said (Liberalism is a mental disorder ) I agree with that also.

Frank

Frank,
I was being a smart alic, with the IMHO,and FWIW stuff. That was the abbreviations I was talking about I have spent a year trying to learn! In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) and For What Its Worth (FWIW) I wish people would just spell it out. Anyway terminology and abbreviations are both things I struggle with also. I am the one you have seen with the signature ( Liberalism is a mental disorder!!! ) I am as well a Christian first and formost secondly I am a Hard core right wing conservative constitutionalists ! Another words a John Wayne apple pie eating chevrolet driving red blooded patriotic AMERICAN!!! another words in this day in age I am the minority. I appreciate your service to your country, so I can freely play on the internet and proclaim to be a Christian without being stoned to death I thank you and all other service men and women of the American armed forces for keeping this the safest and greatest nation on Gods green earth, and for all the freedoms that we have! Thank you. I am not politically correct either as you can see. I hope we talk again Frank I like the way you talk and think
Wayne.