Reloading at the match

[gunsandgunsmithing]

was it a 22PPC or a 22PPC Short.?

Pretty sure full length on all three mentioned. Actually, it may've been more. Maybe 4 or 5 as Danny and Steve shot different rifles in custom, modified and unlimited classes but they were all 22PPC's

 

[AlNyhus]

Once you start loading at the range, a whole new world opens up. Even with hunting rigs, I go to the range with sized and primed cases, a chart of weights relative to the powder measure setting for all the powders I want to try, a Wilson seater die with seating stem lengths recorded for the bullets I want to work with and a small arbor press.

Loading at a tournament between relays is even easier. -Al

 

[David Milisock]

"Luckiest"????????
Your kidding right?

No I'm not kidding, out to 400 you can argue load development and shooter skill but depending on the caliber not out past that.

I guarantee that the more you work the luckier you can get. However if I was wrong the winners would be the same very few people all the time. We know that doesn't happen. In fact how many shooters win, 2, 3, 4, or 5 in a row?

This is why the 7.62 x 51 is so popular for urban situations, eddy currents affect smaller calibers in bad ways even in short distances, as the range increases this gets worse.

Unless you shoot only on perfectly flat ranges on days w8th no wind then yes there's always an element of luck, especially when you measuring 1st place and second place in hundreds of an inch.

 

[JoeDuke]

Not knocking your game as any shooting discipline is far better than sitting home.
Casual perusal of the recent UBR results show the .22’s and 6MM’s far outnumber the .30’s. Appears the targets might not be as caliber neutral as they are meant to be. Perhaps more data might support the targets but where the big boys play, it does not appear so.
Again, I suspect it is great fun. I recently built a new VFS rifle and chambered both a .30BR and a 6BR barrel for it. The 6 is deathly accurate and great fun to shoot. Not sure I would take it to the NBRSA Nats.

It's a different game so no rules were changed, Joe. I find it interesting, the different perspectives people have about the caliber neutral aspect of the game but I like the UBR format and it's been pretty successful in a relatively short period of time. The game allows you to shoot a 30, a 22 or a 6mm without being at a scoring advantage or disadvantage. Really nothing more and nothing less in that regard...just different is all. I think it works well because it does allow other calibers to be competitive. I see that as a good thing rather than having a negative view of it. Anything within reason to bring more guns and shooters to the sport of benchrest, I welcome and see no reason to view that in a negative light. The only reason I can imagine is from those that have a 30 and feel like shooting against a 22 or a 6 leaves them at a disadvantage for some reason, because no one is saying you can't still shoot your 30...you just don't have the same scoring advantage that it has in IBS or NBRSA. This is equal and allows us to shoot whatever we feel like gives us the best chance of winning with, as well as encouraging people to test things that aren't tested in other BR venues, as a whole. Again, I think it's more about perspective than anything. The new guy can shoot what he has and the old guy with a 6ppc group gun can shoot ubr without being at a disadvantage. This is especially nice where group matches are either long distances to drive or where a range may only have one or two group matches a year. Last weekend at the UBR Nationals, a 22 PPC pretty much ruled the roost taking 1st and 2nd in custom and 1st, 2nd and 3rd in modified classes. Somehow, some view a level playing field as a bad thing and others view a level playing field, a good thing. Not saying either perspective is right or wrong but I fall into the latter and I like the options that it gives without being penalized.

Shooting a 30 does have its advantages, like going pre loaded and being quite forgiving to tune changes, as well as their barrel life. But yes, they kick a little harder, of course. I'll say this and stop but on a level playing field, where people shoot several different calibers and cartridges, the venerable 6PPC holds its own very well but doesn't dominate. Same can be said about the 30's and even with this year's nationals butt whipping by the 22's, they don't typicall dominate either. There's a healthy mix of cartridges that win in UBR, head to head. I find that most interesting, as when head to head, the cartridge kings of BR are not nearly as dominant as some would think.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Not knocking your game as any shooting discipline is far better than sitting home.
Casual perusal of the recent UBR results show the .22’s and 6MM’s far outnumber the .30’s. Appears the targets might not be as caliber neutral as they are meant to be. Perhaps more data might support the targets but where the big boys play, it does not appear so.
Again, I suspect it is great fun. I recently built a new VFS rifle and chambered both a .30BR and a 6BR barrel for it. The 6 is deathly accurate and great fun to shoot. Not sure I would take it to the NBRSA Nats.

The targets are mathematically equal. All sorts of reasons to shoot a given cartridge if the playing field is equal. That's when you see what performs best, head to head. When UBR began, the 30's were by far the most common up and down the line. People have migrated to whatever they feel gives them the best chance to win, simple as that. Don't get me wrong, I love my 30's but when the advantage of the bigger hole is no longer there, it's not my first choice...but still very good. Last year SOY had a 30 in 3rd and the same man won the 100 yard portion of the Nationals and finished 2nd overall....pre-loading his ammo. So yes, the 30 can compete in UBR very well

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Joe, as for your "big boys" comment, ubr began in 2011. Off the top of my head I think I can name 5 IBS national championships won by UBR regulars since then. There are big boys in all 3 disciplines, Joe. To think differently isn't fooling me. It's fooling yourself. All three organizations are very good, no matter what you choose or why, sir.
Your big boys comment is actually one factor of many as to why UBR has grown and been successful.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Don’t forget that UBR has a different scoring system as well. The X is an eleven. While that might not mean as much at 100 yards, it means a lot at 200.

two years ago the Gulf Coast Region submitted to the NBRSA to adopt an 11 point system in VFS, making the X more than the tie breaker, but actually part of the score.

The measure was defeated by a huge margin.

Judging from our very successful Nationals at Raton this year, I think the current NBRSA system is here to stay.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Don’t forget that UBR has a different scoring system as well. The X is an eleven. While that might not mean as much at 100 yards, it means a lot at 200.

two years ago the Gulf Coast Region submitted to the NBRSA to adopt an 11 point system in VFS, making the X more than the tie breaker, but actually part of the score.

The measure was defeated by a huge margin.

Judging from our very successful Nationals at Raton this year, I think the current NBRSA system is here to stay.

True. That brings up the old debate of which is the better shooter...the guy who shoots a 249-24x or the one that shoots a 250-0x. I can tell you two things about that. One is, you don't win many matches, in any disciplines shooting 9's and I can also say that it takes a more accurate rifle to shoot dots vs 10's. There ya go. Pre-loaded or otherwise, those two things are hard to argue with. In terms of going pre-loaded with a PPC, the LT32 seems to be THE powder. It gives up little or nothing to n133 in terms of accuracy and it seems way better in regard to holding tune. I know that I used 30.6gr of 133 ans a 68gr bullet in one of my rifles last weekend. It shot fine but it was the first one to go out of tune on me. Not bad. A mark on the tuner brought it right back. That's in a .070 long PPC fwiw.

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

No I'm not kidding, out to 400 you can argue load development and shooter skill but depending on the caliber not out past that.

I guarantee that the more you work the luckier you can get. However if I was wrong the winners would be the same very few people all the time. We know that doesn't happen. In fact how many shooters win, 2, 3, 4, or 5 in a row?

This is why the 7.62 x 51 is so popular for urban situations, eddy currents affect smaller calibers in bad ways even in short distances, as the range increases this gets worse.

Unless you shoot only on perfectly flat ranges on days w8th no wind then yes there's always an element of luck, especially when you measuring 1st place and second place in hundreds of an inch.

Wow...
First of all, I don't know of many BR or F-Class competitions that are shot in "urban situations"
I also don't know how many use a "7.62x51"(aka .308 win?) in competition with the exception of those disciplines that require it.
As to your point of the same shooters winning all the time, I would suggest you check out the results from any of the bigger LR BR matches, or F-Class matches and you will find that a lot of the same people populate the top 10.
To your last point, you have it completely bass-akwards. If anything, when the conditions are as you describe, I would contend that is when luck could enter the picture. It eliminates the advantage that the knowledgeable wind readers would have.
I have been shooting LR BR almost since it started out here on the Left Coast (pretty successfully) and my real life experience is that the guy who deciphered the conditions best that day usually comes out on top.
YMMV
G

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

True. That brings up the old debate of which is the better shooter...the guy who shoots a 249-24x or the one that shoots a 250-0x. I can tell you two things about that. One is, you don't win many matches, in any disciplines shooting 9's and I can also say that it takes a more accurate rifle to shoot dots vs 10's. There ya go. Pre-loaded or otherwise, those two things are hard to argue with. In terms of going pre-loaded with a PPC, the LT32 seems to be THE powder. It gives up little or nothing to n133 in terms of accuracy and it seems way better in regard to holding tune. I know that I used 30.6gr of 133 ans a 68gr bullet in one of my rifles last weekend. It shot fine but it was the first one to go out of tune on me. Not bad. A mark on the tuner brought it right back. That's in a .070 long PPC fwiw.

Mike,
As far as LT32 goes, I couldn't agree more. Broader tune window, and I don't know if the two are related, but seems to respond to tuner adjustments more predictably.
I can load .2 grain up or down from my load of 28.4gr with a 68 gr Epstein FB without noticing a difference on the target that can't be tweaked with your tuner, usually just a POI difference.
Of course since I preload & am OCD enough to weigh to the single kernel on the Satorius, all I am left with is just a little tweak on the tuner as my adjustment. It all gets lost in the conditions anyway, but it makes me feel better in my head!
G

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike,
As far as LT32 goes, I couldn't agree more. Broader tune window, and I don't know if the two are related, but seems to respond to tuner adjustments more predictably.
I can load .2 grain up or down from my load of 30.4gr with a 68 gr Epstein FB without noticing a difference on the target that can't be tweaked with your tuner, usually just a POI difference.
Of course since I preload & am OCD enough to weigh to the single kernel on the Satorius, all I am left with is just a little tweak on the tuner as my adjustment. It all gets lost in the conditions anyway, but it makes me feel better in my head!
G

That head matters a bunch though! FWIW, the 133 load I shot this weekend responded very predictably, just like I want, to tuner adjustments....no surprises and responded textbook like. It just went out before the other guns/loads. No real complaints with it. The gun shot great. I didn't do my part but that's what I get for basically no substantial practice for 4 years in a row. It has slowly but surely caught up to me and I've just forgotten how to shoot, apparently. I just hope it comes back faster than it left. Lol! I think it will but I've got work to do, for sure. I can and have been watching my scores slowly slip away. Life just got in the way is all, but I hope to work on that over the winter and improve for next year. Been saying that for a while now! Hopefully things get better this time around.

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

That head matters a bunch though! FWIW, the 133 load I shot this weekend responded very predictably, just like I want, to tuner adjustments....no surprises and responded textbook like. It just went out before the other guns/loads. No real complaints with it. The gun shot great. I didn't do my part but that's what I get for basically no substantial practice for 4 years in a row. It has slowly but surely caught up to me and I've just forgotten how to shoot, apparently. I just hope it comes back faster than it left. Lol! I think it will but I've got work to do, for sure. I can and have been watching my scores slowly slip away. Life just got in the way is all, but I hope to work on that over the winter and improve for next year. Been saying that for a while now! Hopefully things get better this time around.

Yeh, been there done that!
Sometimes after we have been doing it for a while I think we get complacent about maintaining the skills that got us there. Everything becomes automatic which in one sense is good, but not if it allows you to slip into complacency.
Sometimes we forget just how hard hitting that little dot ( or bullet hole) is!
G

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yeh, been there done that!
Sometimes after we have been doing it for a while I think we get complacent about maintaining the skills that got us there. Everything becomes automatic which in one sense is good, but not if it allows you to slip into complacency.
Sometimes we forget just how hard hitting that little dot ( or bullet hole) is!
G

Well said...I think.

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

By the way I listed the charge wrong in my post.
It’s 28.4 not 30.4! I don’t think you can get 30.4 in a PPC case with a 3 foot drop tube. Corrected
Sorry about that

 

[jackieschmidt]

By the way I listed the charge wrong in my post.
It’s 28.4 not 30.4! I don’t think you can get 30.4 in a PPC case with a 3 foot drop tube. Corrected
Sorry about that

Sure you can.

In fact, at any given Short Range Group Match, I would bet that 50%+ of the shooters are doing just that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Sure you can.

In fact, at any given Short Range Group Match, I would bet that 50%+ of the shooters are doing just that.

I think he was referring to lt32. If so, that's way passed hotter than he'll in a ppc. It might fit though, with a long enough drop tube. Lt32 is about a grain faster than n133. I'm certainly open to correction if I'm wrong though.

 

[jackieschmidt]

I think he was referring to lt32. If so, that's way passed hotter than he'll in a ppc. It might fit though, with a long enough drop tube. Lt32 is about a grain faster than n133. I'm certainly open to correction if I'm wrong though.

If LT-32 is a full grain faster, heck no.

Not if you want to get the bolt open.

I have never shot it. I have a jug of really old 2015 BR that tops out at a flat 29.0. The only place I shoot it is at Phoenix.

 

[Greg@wfcustom]

Sure you can.

In fact, at any given Short Range Group Match, I would bet that 50%+ of the shooters are doing just that.

Yes Jackie I was referring to LT32.
With a short (4”) drop tube it is about 1/3 up the neck. I only shot 29.5 when I used N133 and could never believe the loads they shot back east.
G

 

[jackieschmidt]

Yes Jackie I was referring to LT32.
With a short (4”) drop tube it is about 1/3 up the neck. I only shot 29.5 when I used N133 and could never believe the loads they shot back east.
G

Have you ever chronographed that load? Just curious.
most of the 30.0+ loads of 133 top 3400.

I was testing a new 68 BT last Sunday with 30.4 of 133, it averaged around 3430 Fps out of a 21 inch barrel

 

[David Milisock]

Wow...
First of all, I don't know of many BR or F-Class competitions that are shot in "urban situations"
I also don't know how many use a "7.62x51"(aka .308 win?) in competition with the exception of those disciplines that require it.
As to your point of the same shooters winning all the time, I would suggest you check out the results from any of the bigger LR BR matches, or F-Class matches and you will find that a lot of the same people populate the top 10.
To your last point, you have it completely bass-akwards. If anything, when the conditions are as you describe, I would contend that is when luck could enter the picture. It eliminates the advantage that the knowledgeable wind readers would have.
I have been shooting LR BR almost since it started out here on the Left Coast (pretty successfully) and my real life experience is that the guy who deciphered the conditions best that day usually comes out on top.
YMMV
G

So you're saying the guy who deciphered the conditions best was lucky?

He guessed right and let's be honest there's a significant amount of skill in those words guessed right, but it'sstill a guess. Then he was lucky the conditions maintained during his shot strings.

I'll go one farther he was lucky that the other competitors weren't as good at deciphering the conditions, and maybe lucky that the conditions changed radically during their shot strings.

So by the grace of God the hole goes into the paper in a pleasing way.