Reducing SD by trying different powders and primers in 223AI

[Dwubyd]

Update:
The 223AI is back from the gunsmith with a new barrel. 1 in 8 twist 26" Cheetah. I have run about 130 rounds through it. I just can't seem to make the 80gn ELDMs work. Today I was fire forming some Lapua with junk loads - Rem primers that were left over from testing, some 30 year old 52gn BT pills and fire forming from 223 cases.....and it shot great! A couple of .4" groups. Now I am thinking the 80 ELDMs are too long for the 1 in 8 twist of the new tube. I will try Berger 75 VLDs and 80 VLDs. The Berger stability calculator has them at 1.5 and 1.37. The 80ELDMs are at 1.2 in the stability calculator.

Anyone else tried heavier bullets in a 1 in 8 twist?

 

[Chilly807]

I didn't have much luck with the 75 ELDM, and I'd expect the 80 ELDM to be worse from a stability point of view. My barrel is also an 8 twist, and it's a 223, not a 223AI.

Hornady "match" bullets in general haven't impressed me, maybe I'm a bullet snob. I've been called worse..

I use 80 Match Kings and 80.5 Bergers, but it will also shoot the 85.5 Berger Hybrids. I got them as a backup in case I had trouble finding the Sierras or the 80.5 Bergers.

Accuracy is a bit looser with the 85.5's, as they're not quite as stable as they should be in an 8 twist barrel. Berger says they'll work in an 8 twist, and they will, but it's not ideal.

The 80 Sierra is the more accurate bullet in my rifle, but there are a few problems with it. It either has a thicker jacket, or a longer bearing surface.. pressure builds sooner than it does with the 80.5 Berger Fullbore bullet. If you don't need speed, it's fine. I get more speed with less pressure using the 80.5 Bergers.

In order to shoot 800m F-TR with the 223, I need to be supersonic at the target (Shotmarker system), so speed matters. A longer barrel in 7 twist would make life easier, but I'll run this one until it's done or I get fed up, whichever comes first.

 

[Dgd6mm]

I shoot HM scores at 600 yards in FTR. My rifle is a Savage .223 running a Hornaday 80eldm. Benchmark 26" 1-8" twist barrel throated for this bullet.

 

[Dwubyd]

I shoot HM scores at 600 yards in FTR. My rifle is a Savage .223 running a Hornaday 80eldm. Benchmark 26" 1-8" twist barrel throated for this bullet.

What does HM scores mean?

 

[Dwubyd]

Chilly, how fast are the 80gn Sierras and Bergers coming out the end of the tube? I only need 2850-2900fps.

 

[jelenko]

What does HM scores mean?

For 600 yards, it's means you lose no more than 1.5% of the total points. Usually that means 98.5% of all shots are 10's or X's. The 10 ring is 1 MOA; the X ring 1/2 MOA.

 

[Chilly807]

Chilly, how fast are the 80gn Sierras and Bergers coming out the end of the tube? I only need 2850-2900fps.

I'm at a disadvantage with a 24" barrel, the rifle is a 223 Tikka T3x Varmint. It has a stock SAAMI chamber with a fairly short throat.

The 80 Sierras are going about 2675 fps, and the Berger 80.5 is at 2750 fps. Both are supersonic at 800m, I think the BC is slightly higher on the Sierra bullet.

Add a couple inches of barrel length and you should be right around 2850 I think.

Both loads use N140, and neither is above Viht's recommended max charge.

Both are jumped 15 thou off the lands.

I think you'd easily get 2850-2900 with either bullet in 223AI, but it'll be easier to get speed with the Berger.

 

[Dwubyd]

This week I tested about 6 different projectiles from Berger, Hornady and Sierra. The ones in the yellow boxes did best. The Berger 73gn BT Target pills showed most promise and the 85.5 hybrids were also good.

I was having trouble with the brass fire formed in the old barrel sticking in the new chamber. Seems to have been alleviated by using new brass. SDs were in the range of 8-15 for 5 shot groups.

Now I have to choose between the 85.5 and 73 grain pills. My preference is the 85.5s for their higher BC and hence better long range ballistic performance. The 85.5s were "marginally stable" according to Berger's stability calculator. They also say on their website that a bullet with lower SG number will have a lower BC. So maybe the drop in BC due to the lower SG will outweigh the advantage of the higher quoted BC. I suspect the only way to find out is to ping them at paper and see which is least affected by wind.

 

[L.Sherm]

I was having trouble with the brass fire formed in the old barrel sticking in the new chamber.

I'm betting the old barrel was fatter at the back end, new one is tighter.

 

[hunter67]

I ran 8208 in my 223ai with excellent results. Stupidly accurate, but I was not shooting matches, but the pdogs did complain out to 600.

 

[TikkaMan223]

I am also struggling but with a 223. Gun is 1:7 223 wyled. SDs in the mid teens to low 20s. I tried varget, staball match and cfe 223. 88 eldms and 80 eldms. Groups are to die for 10 shots probably clost to 0.5 inch in size. My sds are haunting me. Im going to try crimp soon. Im using lc brass, cci 400 primers... Powder is so dang expensive I cant afford to experiment any longer. Anyone know of magic powders for the heavier bullets that seem to work magic? Was thinking of giving n140 a shot...

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I am also struggling but with a 223. Gun is 1:7 223 wyled. SDs in the mid teens to low 20s. I tried varget, staball match and cfe 223. 88 eldms and 80 eldms. Groups are to die for 10 shots probably clost to 0.5 inch in size. My sds are haunting me. Im going to try crimp soon. Im using lc brass, cci 400 primers... Powder is so dang expensive I cant afford to experiment any longer. Anyone know of magic powders for the heavier bullets that seem to work magic? Was thinking of giving n140 a shot...

Primers are cheap. Try cci 450 or rem 7.5.

Brass made the biggest difference for me, but LC is supposed to be decent.

I basically gave up chasing es\sd in 223 and smaller cases. Im pretty sure its the inconsistent necks on starline brass. I gave up measuring it. In comparison, brass for my 6 creed and saum are so consistent I stopped measuring cuz 10 were identical. Im willing to try lapua brass next time I need to purchase some, and thats will be the end of the 223 es\sd journey lol.

My neighbor has pmc green tip cheap ammo that gets really good es\sd. Pisses me off it beats all my 223 and 204 handloads. I can't remember the numbers. I think maybe my 223 ai load beats it. Its so cheap be worth trying a box and if you get good numbers try loading that brass.

 

[Chilly807]

Try some Federal 205 match primers if you can find them, they've been more consistent than CCI in my rifle. Not as tolerant of pressure, though.
Crimp will probably help, and N140 will work with the 80's. Might be a tad fast burning for the 88's, that's edging into N150 territory. N150 is bulkier, but you might be OK with the longer Wylde chamber.
I've no experience with Staball or CFE.

High SD numbers at close range really don't matter much. Only a number. It's when you stretch it out that you have trouble. Anything past 600m and you start to see more vertical than you'd like.

223 is notorious for high ES/SD. I think it's a combination of small case volume magnifying any component variation, plus a case that's not conducive to smooth, consistent combustion from shot to shot. It's a relatively tall, narrow column of powder.
There are work-around solutions, crimp has been one of them in my experience.

 

[Ackman]

In my 223AI, the load is VV133 with 50 Sierra BK@3825, and VV135 with 55 Nosler BT @ about 3650. IMI brass, Rem 7-1/2 primer. And with 40 Bal Tip and 2015 powder, about 4100.. Very nicely accurate through a 14tw barrel.

 

[TikkaMan223]

I built this 223 wylde for the 88s to do 1000 yards with it. 600 yards it has done quite well 800 so so and 1000 is a no go with my sds.

Ill try crimp then new primers. I can pick up a box of 450s. Im about to run out of cfe 223 before I get an 8lb I want to see if I can get any better or switch to VV powders as they are cheaper and I have heard good reviews...

I got slightly better sds with staball match but pierced my cci 400 primers. Maybe ill go magnum and try staball match a second time, hopefully avoid piercing the primers...

 

[RabbitSlayer]

In my 223AI, the load is VV133 with 50 Sierra BK@3825, and VV135 with 55 Nosler BT @ about 3650. IMI brass, Rem 7-1/2 primer. And with 40 Bal Tip and 2015 powder, about 4100.. Very nicely accurate through a 14tw barrel.

And I thought 53 vmax at 3600 was spicy in my AI with n133.

 

[Evlshnngns]

I built this 223 wylde for the 88s to do 1000 yards with it. 600 yards it has done quite well 800 so so and 1000 is a no go with my sds.

Ill try crimp then new primers. I can pick up a box of 450s. Im about to run out of cfe 223 before I get an 8lb I want to see if I can get any better or switch to VV powders as they are cheaper and I have heard good reviews...

I got slightly better sds with staball match but pierced my cci 400 primers. Maybe ill go magnum and try staball match a second time, hopefully avoid piercing the primers...

I never push cci 400's hard. Mild only. They are the only primer I have ever popped.

600yds with a 223 is tough at my windy range. I need to try the Berger 85.5.

 

[ELR LVR]

Update:
The 223AI is back from the gunsmith with a new barrel. 1 in 8 twist 26" Cheetah. I have run about 130 rounds through it. I just can't seem to make the 80gn ELDMs work. Today I was fire forming some Lapua with junk loads - Rem primers that were left over from testing, some 30 year old 52gn BT pills and fire forming from 223 cases.....and it shot great! A couple of .4" groups. Now I am thinking the 80 ELDMs are too long for the 1 in 8 twist of the new tube. I will try Berger 75 VLDs and 80 VLDs. The Berger stability calculator has them at 1.5 and 1.37. The 80ELDMs are at 1.2 in the stability calculator.

Anyone else tried heavier bullets in a 1 in 8 twist?

I tried 88 ELD'ms in an 8 Tw 220 A.I.
shot like crap, hornadys are not a great bullet sometimes
they are a cheaper alternative for fun shooting
if you happen to get lucky they can shoot sometimes in the right gun, right grain weight etc
I got Berger 85.5's to shoot great however in the same gun with the 8 Tw.
I believe my Stability factor was around 1.42 with my velocity and the Berger

 

[TikkaMan223]

I tried 88 ELD'ms in an 8 Tw 220 A.I.
shot like crap, hornadys are not a great bullet sometimes
they are a cheaper alternative for fun shooting
if you happen to get lucky they can shoot sometimes in the right gun, right grain weight etc
I got Berger 85.5's to shoot great however in the same gun with the 8 Tw.
I believe my Stability factor was around 1.42 with my velocity and the Berger

88 eldm 9 shot group at 100 yards. Im having no problems with these. In fact I use 140 eldm in my 6.5 creedmoor and I get similar results...

 

[ELR LVR]

88 eldm 9 shot group at 100 yards. Im having no problems with these. In fact I use 140 eldm in my 6.5 creedmoor and I get similar results...

Thats an amazing group with those
What cartridge and velocity?
--
I have used the 147 Eldm and did fine below 3000 fps
so I would agree some cartridges can use them fine