Redding Type S bushing die and neck concentricity

[Pres100]

Factory barrels have a pretty generous neck clearance (sloppy) leaving you with a fired piece of brass with a generously swollen neck. Its to much squeeze for a floating bushing no matter what you try or what lube you use your going to induce neck run out.

That's why they make bushings in a range .. so you can appropriately size based on your chamber. Choose the appropriate size based on fired measurements

 

[Pres100]

Load up a some rounds without all the "corrective" measures in place. Select a few each at 0 to .002" TIR (total indicated runout) and .002" to .004" TIR and shoot them. Then tell us if you can shoot the difference between the two.

There is a reason why so many shooters here when asked whether they own a concentricity gauge reply that they bought one a long time ago, but now it simply sits in the box in a drawer somewhere. I can understand that OCD might drive a reloader to reduce TIR to as close to zero as possible, believe me, I do...I really do. But that is the OCD talking, not an actual target demonstrating unacceptable precision. Someone that routinely obtains TIR in the .005" to .008" range (or greater) really might need to do something about it. If it's just a couple thousandths, most will never be able to shoot the difference. There are enough other issues that really do need to be addressed during the reloading process that there is no reason to invent another one solely due to OCD.

Definitely agree with this and "suffer" from it to a degree! Mostly try to do the best I can for ALL variables rather than try to shoot the difference for every one.
There's a LOT of money being made on the OCD Sicknes!

 

[Mark611]

IMO if you shoot short ranges run out doesn't mean a whole lot, if you shoot out beyond 800m and 1k according to John Whidden, every 1 k of runout equals 1'' at 1k, keeping that in mind you have factor all the other factors it takes to shoot those distances, so reducing runout is just 1 of the things you need to control, so if your target ranges are 300yds and 3k of runout is acceptable to you? that's fine, but the goal for most of us is to shoot as small of groups as possible to reach out to the longer ranges with less factors of error!

 

[6Creed73]

IMO if you shoot short ranges run out doesn't mean a whole lot, if you shoot out beyond 800m and 1k according to John Whidden, every 1 k of runout equals 1'' at 1k, keeping that in mind you have factor all the other factors it takes to shoot those distances, so reducing runout is just 1 of the things you need to control, so if your target ranges are 300yds and 3k of runout is acceptable to you? that's fine, but the goal for most of us is to shoot as small of groups as possible to reach out to the longer ranges with less factors of error!

I agree with this. I do shoot everything between 50 to 1200yds, which is why I try to keep runout to .002 or better.

I do my load testing at 100yds and when I've tried to test different runout variances at this distance, I can't discern a difference. However, even at 500 yards I tend to get more fliers when I'm shooting a batch with more runout. I separate and box my loaded ammo by .002 and under and .002 and over among other things like bullet weight

 

[6Creed73]

There's a LOT of money being made on the OCD Sicknes!

Man, you got that right! I can't tell you how many times I've bought equipment, different bullets, different powders, etc that I probably didn't need due to chasing perfection. I always tell myself after a buy something that it's the last time, I'm done buying crap I don't need. Spoiler alert...I, in fact, was not done buying crap I don't need, lol. Like you said, it's a sickness!

 

[Murray Brook]

Went down the concentricity rabbit hole about 7 yrs ago. Purchased a gauge, done a lot of research and I must say I learned alot about dies, chambers and what causes run-out. At the time my average run-out was .004-.005. Tried several different routes to reduce run-out and settled on the Redding body die/Lee collet die and a good seater die. Got my average #'s down to .0015. The only problem with all of this is that is didn't show up on paper. I shoot at 100-200-300 yds. Zero gain at 100 and 200, maybe a very slight gain at 300. JME

 

[mikecr]

There is nothing to guide an expander mandrel with the center line of the case body. It's a long rod aligned only by the slop in the threads in the top of the die.

The system offered by Sinclair has the mandrel floating.

Load up a some rounds without all the "corrective" measures in place. Select a few each at 0 to .002" TIR (total indicated runout) and .002" to .004" TIR and shoot them. Then tell us if you can shoot the difference between the two.

TIR that matters is that bad enough to cause chambered pressure points. That's where shots are thrown.
So it never matters until you run out of clearance for it.

That's why they make bushings in a range .. so you can appropriately size based on your chamber. Choose the appropriate size based on fired measurements

Bushing selection is not based on fired neck ODs, but on loaded neck ODs.
This is really simple -until your chamber leaves you to size >5thou.
The angle in this excess situation is high enough to cause brass rolling into smaller diameter than stamped on a bushing. With that it's a bit of trial & error, and could lead to using a 1-2thou larger than predicted bushing.
You're right,, Just clarifying this.

 

[Pres100]

Bushing selection is not based on fired neck ODs. It's based on loaded neck ODs.
This is really simple -until your chamber leaves you to size >5thou.
The angle in this excess situation is high enough to cause brass rolling into smaller diameter than stamped on a bushing. With that it's a bit of trial & error, and could lead to using a 1-2thou larger than predicted bushing.
Just clarifying this.

True .. I was thinking the fired size as an indicator of ROUGH chamber dimensions. If your neck was expanding 0.009" that would definitely be a problem

 

[6Creed73]

Went down the concentricity rabbit hole about 7 yrs ago. Purchased a gauge, done a lot of research and I must say I learned alot about dies, chambers and what causes run-out. At the time my average run-out was .004-.005. Tried several different routes to reduce run-out and settled on the Redding body die/Lee collet die and a good seater die. Got my average #'s down to .0015. The only problem with all of this is that is didn't show up on paper. I shoot at 100-200-300 yds. Zero gain at 100 and 200, maybe a very slight gain at 300. JME

That's funny that you mention the Redding body die/Lee collet die. I sized some cases tonight with the Redding Die without a neck bushing and then sized the neck with a Forster neck die. Runout on the cases were great, but the forster always produces good results so I wasn't surprised.

I don't really want to add another step to my process, but I'll see how these shoot. Who knows, maybe I'll keep the Forster in the FL sizing process. I also have some SAC bushings coming for the Redding, so I'll have more testing to do when they get here.

 

[MagnumW]

Have a 338-378 that likes fullsize with forstner body die with neck honed oversize with lee collet to neck size or just forstner with neck honed to final size. Both are .001 typically not over .0015.

 

[markm87]

The best thing about the Type S bushing dies is that once you've grown sick of messing with bushings and runout, you can remove them and use it as an expensive body die!!

 

[rwj]

I use Redding bushings and turn case necks to achieve a diametral clearance of 0.003/0.004 inches when chambered, use a chamber reamer that has much less diametral clearance for the bullet, and don’t experience chambering issues due to eccentric rounds. Am I just lucky?

 

[Eagle Six]

I'm getting .0015" on my Sinclair concentricity gauge (for as accurate as it is!) on Hornady, Alpha, and Barnes brass. With one or two out of fifty being out.

 

[BoydAllen]

I've been thinking about getting one just to try it out, they are cheap so why not. But I doubt I'd use it. I like to control how much I size the neck with bushings. I'm guessing the Lee will size it down too much as pretty much all non-bushing dies do.

I would like to do some testing with one though. I know people who use it swear by it.

Up to a point you can affect sizing with different sizes of mandrels in a collet die. Typically, I find that I want a little more neck tension then they will give out of the box so I chuck up the mandrel in a drill and carefully sand the mandrel down a bit, checking frequently as I go. You can also order smaller mandrels from Lee. Particularly for unturned necks, combining a collet die with a body die gives great results.

 

[NW Hunter]

I typically floated the bushing just a hair .. less than a 1/16 ... just taking the pressure off. maybe seemed a bit more consistent.

More recently I changed to the SAC bushing that only partially sizes and seem to get the claimed reduction in runout. Generally 0.001 or less on recent tests

This^^^
I had the same runout issues. I thought move bushing float would be better. Nope! Just BARELY floating the bushing will get your runout down.