Redding Full Length Sizing Die Bumps Shoulder In Wrong Direction

[uda123cat]

I have been out of reloading for about a year due to various issues but am now getting back into it and have encountered a strange issue with a 6.5 creedmoor redding full length sizing die with the bushing. I cleaned all the equipment including the die and reassembled it back again with no issue per redding instructions. You can hear the rattle of the bushing by backing off the top insert just enough. I raised the cam and screwed down the die until touching and then backed the die off one full turn and then screwed the die in by 1/8 turns. Of course, checking and measuring the fired cases (different fired case for each measurement) with the appropriate Hornady bump gauge and then inserting the case and remeasuring after sizing the case, and then starting with a different fired case for the next measurement. With the die screwed all the way out and all the way in (wasted a lot of cases as you can imagine) the shoulder bump gauge recorded an increasing length. No matter how far out or how far in the die is screwed, the case length gets correspondingly longer, i.e. the shoulder bumps in the wrong direction. The cases and the die are lubed, my gauge/caliper are all accurate. I repeated the whole process using Larry Willis's digital head space gauge and got identical results, a lengthening of the shoulder not bumping back (of course with different fired cases; now wasting a lot of cases). Man, I am so confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am sure I am doing something stupid or making a newbie mistake and am ready for any criticism as long as I can get back to reloading.

thank you
Dan

 

[Cool Tool]

When you said you had die all the way in with a case in the shell holder, ram extended all the way down can you see visible daylight or can you get any shims between die an shell holder

 

[Shynloco]

Dan,
Did you try taking ONE casing, then running the FL die in to contact with the shell holder, resize it and then check the result. I haven't a clue how your case guage works (never used that model), but I use RCBS case gauges for every caliber I reload for. The principles for resizing are the same no matter the caliber (I think). BTW, where all those pieces of brass fired out of the same rifle chamber? If not, you could have a variety of bumping shoulders that you'll have to deal with if the case heads are of different thickness.

Alex

 

[Hondo64d]

I have been out of reloading for about a year due to various issues but am now getting back into it and have encountered a strange issue with a 6.5 creedmoor redding full length sizing die with the bushing. I cleaned all the equipment including the die and reassembled it back again with no issue per redding instructions. You can hear the rattle of the bushing by backing off the top insert just enough. I raised the cam and screwed down the die until touching and then backed the die off one full turn and then screwed the die in by 1/8 turns. Of course, checking and measuring the fired cases (different fired case for each measurement) with the appropriate Hornady bump gauge and then inserting the case and remeasuring after sizing the case, and then starting with a different fired case for the next measurement. With the die screwed all the way out and all the way in (wasted a lot of cases as you can imagine) the shoulder bump gauge recorded an increasing length. No matter how far out or how far in the die is screwed, the case length gets correspondingly longer, i.e. the shoulder bumps in the wrong direction. The cases and the die are lubed, my gauge/caliper are all accurate. I repeated the whole process using Larry Willis's digital head space gauge and got identical results, a lengthening of the shoulder not bumping back (of course with different fired cases; now wasting a lot of cases). Man, I am so confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am sure I am doing something stupid or making a newbie mistake and am ready for any criticism as long as I can get back to reloading.

thank you
Dan

Sounds to me like the die may be a little too long, so when sizing, it is squeezing the sides, forcing the shoulder to go forward. You could send it back to Redding and see if they'll ground a few .001 off the bottom.

John

 

[JohnHenry]

Don't know what press you are using but suggest you screw your die in until it touches the shell holder and then screw it in 1/8 to 1/6 of a turn further. This will take the "play" out of your press linkages and give you the maximum shoulder bump possible with your die. Make further finer die adjustments to get your desired shoulder bump. With your die having 14 tpi, 1/6 of a turn will move your die approx .012".

 

[M995]

Is this a factory chamber or a custom build ? Are you using an expander ball or the decapping nut ? You should be using the same piece of brass for your initial measurements.

 

[John Russell]

I raised the cam and screwed down the die until touching and then backed the die off one full turn and then screwed the die in by 1/8 turns. Of course, checking and measuring the fired cases (different fired case for each measurement) with the appropriate Hornady bump gauge and then inserting the case and remeasuring after sizing the case, and then starting with a different fired case for the next measurement. With the die screwed all the way out and all the way in (wasted a lot of cases as you can imagine) the shoulder bump gauge recorded an increasing length. No matter how far out or how far in the die is screwed, the case length gets correspondingly longer, i.e. the shoulder bumps in the wrong direction. The cases and the die are lubed, my gauge/caliper are all accurate. I repeated the whole process using Larry Willis's digital head space gauge and got identical results, a lengthening of the shoulder not bumping back (of course with different fired cases; now wasting a lot of cases). Man, I am so confused. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am sure I am doing something stupid or making a newbie mistake and am ready for any criticism as long as I can get back to reloading.

thank you
Dan

It is NORMAL for the shoulder to move forward with FL sizing. The case body contacts the die well before the shoulder does - when the body is squeezed, the body gets longer. At the very last part of the ram stroke, the shoulder contacts the die, and gets "bumped"... Are your fired cases showing resistance when chambering them, or do they chamber easily?

You don't need to "bump" if you are not having difficulty chambering the loaded cases.

If you are not getting the shoulder to set back, then your fired cases are shorter then the FL die.
Send 3 or 4 freshly fired cases, and the FL die to Redding, and they will make it good for you.

 

[uda123cat]

Thank you all for your help so far. I will try to answer the questions as best I can.

Geroge: The cam is all the way up and the shell holder starts out touching it, no daylight, sized from one full turn away all the way back down to touching every 1/4 turn, bump always increases.

Shynloco: Yes, full contact with shell holder. Yes, all fired from same rifle. I am using the hornady so called lock-n-load headspace gauge with bushings C and D and getting identical results with a mitotoyo caliper with either bushing.

Hondo64D: Yes, I have to agree, but don't understand why this should be that way. First thing Monday AM calling redding to see what they have to say about this. Very confusing.

John Henry: Yes I did that, exactly, and the bump grew by 0.0025 instead of shortening. Also reversed the bushing (number up vs down-made no difference).

M995: This is a custom build 6.5 creedmoor by short action customs, no expander ball or recapping (I use an expander mandrel later on in the process); yes, same piece of brass for before and after sizing.

John Russel: Yes, will be contacting redding and happy to send in fired brass.

thank you all
dan

 

[John Russell]

Thank you all for your help so far. I will try to answer the questions as best I can.

Geroge: The cam is all the way up and the shell holder starts out touching it, no daylight, sized from one full turn away all the way back down to touching every 1/4 turn, bump always increases.

Shynloco: Yes, full contact with shell holder. Yes, all fired from same rifle. I am using the hornady so called lock-n-load headspace gauge with bushings C and D and getting identical results with a mitotoyo caliper with either bushing.

Hondo64D: Yes, I have to agree, but don't understand why this should be that way. First thing Monday AM calling redding to see what they have to say about this. Very confusing.

John Henry: Yes I did that, exactly, and the bump grew by 0.0025 instead of shortening. Also reversed the bushing (number up vs down-made no difference).

M995: This is a custom build 6.5 creedmoor by short action customs, no expander ball or recapping (I use an expander mandrel later on in the process); yes, same piece of brass for before and after sizing.

John Russel: Yes, will be contacting redding and happy to send in fired brass.

thank you all
dan

One last bit.
You did not say what press you are using, but most presses have some amount of "spring" in them - some have a LOT of spring in them.

You set the die so it just touches the up ram, and it looks like the case should go all the way in - but the case actually forces the frame of the press to spring of flex, so you are not getting the case all the way in the die.
Run the ram up, and adjust the die to touch the ram, then lower the ram, and screw the die in further, by 1/4 of a turn.
Try the ram now, it should be hard to go the full stroke - this is called "Camming over" and is standard for setting up presses with many dies - now repeat your sizing procedures and see if it is better.

 

[dkhunt14]

Is this a Savage with a Nut? Matt

 

[M995]

Thank you all for your help so far. I will try to answer the questions as best I can.



M995: This is a custom build 6.5 creedmoor by short action customs, no expander ball or recapping (I use an expander mandrel later on in the process); yes, same piece of brass for before and after sizing.


thank you all
dan

Custom built guns normally run minimum spec. chambers . Once the action is torqued up you can lose .001-.003" if it is not accounted for . Shell holders are supposed to be .125" depth. if you have access to a lathe cut .010" off of the top & start over or glue a piece of sand paper to glass & sand it down evenly. But as John R. stated if it chambers fine I would consider it a none issue

 

[22BRGUY]

I've been there done that. It is normal for the die to first lengthen the case and push shoulder forward as mentioned above. The problem is the shelholder is too thick at the top, not allowing the die to go down far enough to do it's bumping. I solved the problem quickly a long time ago by simply filing or grinding down the top of the shell holder about 20 thou so the die could go down far enough to bump the shoulder back. Others have gotten custom dies and sent in cases and had their dies ground off. To me, shellholders are cheap and much easier to just file or grind off. JMHO

 

[RonAKA]

You have gotten a lot of good suggestions on how to deal with it. I would be a bit suspicious of your lubricant. About the only way you could stretch the case when you don't use an expander ball is when you pull the case out of the die. It would take a fair bit of friction to stretch the case. You could try to some different lubes. My go to case lube for many years has been STP oil additive. It is helpful to reduce the force required for sizing big cases.

 

[SmokinJoe]

22BR guy has it right. You can remedy this easiest by having shell holder faced off about .020 as suggested. Do you have a friend with a lathe, or is there a machine shop nearby? Would only take a few minutes to do this job; you will talk about it longer than it will take to do. With the shortened shell holder you will also avoid this problem with other dies. Also the lubrication consistency is important as mentioned. This whole exercise is about making things more consistent. Personally, I have settled on using the spray bottle lubricants consisting of alcohol & anhydrous lanolin. Just put your brass on a spread out wash cloth, spray some on the brass, fold the cloth around the brass & shake (think tumble) it a little, then dump it into a container & take it to the sizing press. This has given me the easiest, most consistent case lubrication ever. After sizing I wash my cases in solvent to remove the lube, strain the lube out of the brass, then dump the cases on a towel in front of a fan to finish drying them off. There are other methods, including water soluble lubes which may work just as well. BTW, what you are seeing is fairly standard observation when 1st bumping shoulders until you get it all worked out in your head & mechanically. Good luck with learning all the finer points of reloading; you have chosen a good place to get help.

 

[Comrade Terry]

You don't need to "bump" if you are not having difficulty chambering the loaded cases.

+1

 

[savagedasher]

Take the expanse ball off and try it . Larry

 

[BoydAllen]

One of the most common mistakes that I see is fellows thinking that they need to bump back shoulders from cases that are not tight in that direction. We bump to make clearance. If there is already clearance in the head to shoulder direction, shortening that dimension further accomplishes nothing useful. Also, if loads are very light, cases can actually shorten up in that dimension from firing. What I would suggest is that you figure out a way to only size the neck of one case, and fire it with stout but safe loads until its shoulder to head dimension stabilizes at its maximum value, and the case is obviously tight when you close the bolt. Keep your lugs lubed while doing this. Then you can keep that case as a die setting reference for that barrel.
Getting back to the die setting...years ago I was setting up a .220 Swift FL die and had brought the die down to touch the shell holder (with the ram in its highest position). The press was a Rockchucker. When I sized the first case, with the ram at the top of its stroke, instead of the die touching the shell holder there was a gap. Curious about how big it was, I got out a set of feeler gauges and measured it. It was .006. That difference showed me that I had room to adjust the die down a little further, which I did, and that allowed me to bump my cases the amount that was needed. The rifle was a Savage, with a factory barrel, and typically, because of the way that gauging is done when they are assembled, their headspaces are at minimum. Another thing, keep in mind that a full turn of a die moves it up or down .071, so when you make an eighth of a turn adjustment that translates into .009. It is hard to hit a bump setting of .001 to a max of .002 with that sort of move. Finally, while I always use a gauge to set dies, tell us how your cases that have gotten longer at the shoulder from being sized chamber in your rifle. If the bolt closes easy, it is a good indication that the shoulders did not need bumping in the first place. Get back to us on this. Once we know that, we can discuss possible solutions, but if there is no bolt close issue, then we will have to wait for a tight fired case (produced as I suggested above) to address whether or not your shell holder needs shortening a few thousandths.

 

[Patch700]

Were it my situation i would weigh the following questions.

1) Do i wish to utilize this brass multiple times?
2) Am i dedicated to this barrel (chamber specifically)

The die you are using is sizing the caese too much at the shoulder body junction , this is where you are seeing the shoulder move forward as the brass has to go somewhere.
You can do as some have suggested by facing off the shellholder or the bottom of the die , however you will still be left with cases that are bieng grossly overworked and that will be counter productive to brass life.

 

[jepp2]

You can do as some have suggested by facing off the shellholder or the bottom of the die , however you will still be left with cases that are bieng grossly overworked and that will be counter productive to brass life.

Not if you set your sizing die based on your measurements.

I have a 223 Improved and use a Redding FL sizing die. With a standard shell holder (0.125" height) I couldn't bump the shoulder back. I removed 0.010" from the top of the shell holder by running it back and forth on a stationary file. This kept it relatively flat. The shell holder is fairly soft, the die is very hard. And the shell holder is cheap, dies not so much. I have no problem sizing my 223 Improved brass now.

You can also cut down a feelers gage and put it under the case head in the shell holder, to force the brass further into the die. You are probably just a few thousandths away from being able to set the shoulder back sufficiently. Of course this all assumes you have done what the others have suggested.

 

[Patch700]

Not if you set your sizing die based on your measurements.
.

Oh? So by adjusting his die that is too deep to the shoulder datum and also too tight in the body shoulder junction (for his chamber) he can resolve his brass from bieng overworked?

Guess what his next post will be... "I have removed .010" from my shell holder and am able to bump shoulders back , but now i have to trim .010" every firing and only get 3 firings before i get case head separations , how come?"

I would seriously suggest a battery of measurements comparing fired to sized cases... sometimes a lot more is going on than a simple shoulder bump and people don't find out until things go bad.