Redding, Forster, or Wilson seater.. Hmmmmm

[fatelvis]

I'm gearing up for my F-class season, and I'm looking to buy a seater that will produce the straightest match 223 Rem ammo possible. Which seater would you buy? Or other suggestions? Thanks guys!

 

[Richard Coody]

Forster benchrest seater is very good

But my preference is the wilson in line seater with an arbor press

 

[rsmithsr50]

I think for f class any will do

 

[dstoenner]

I use Redding competition seaters for all the calibers I can get them in that I use. The fact that they use an opposing spring to keep the bullet and case aligned the whole trip up to the stop makes them have a higher percentage of lower runout than the others. Wilson are second by a few percentage points. German Salazar did a full comparison of seaters and his #1 was Redding with Wilson tied. They were the only 2 that actually improved runout on the loaded round for a few cases.

David

 

[sqrlgtr]

No experience with the 21st but have used/still use the other 3 and think you would have good luck with any of them.I voted for the wilson only because I find it easier to set up and use and probably could get by with out the micrometer.If my brass is straight and true be hard pressed to tell the difference in any of them.Thats my story and Im sticking to it..

 

[Ralph Littlefield]

I've no experience with any of them, but just got a Redding. I'm hoping that it is as good as it is advertised.

 

[Rich Lee]

I use the Wilson inline seaters with a 21st century arbor press but I have a redding compition seater for my 22-250 and it is a very good seater and very concentric with hardly no runout at all but I just like Wilson better. Just me

 

[Uncle Ed]

Reloading: Seating Die Runout
Seating Die Induced Runout - A Comparison
by Germán A. Salazar

The link below is in Adobe PDF format and you may need to see where it was downloaded on your computer.

If you do not want to download this then the Redding die and I assume the Forster benchrest seating dies came in 1st place.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjizfLT_IvoAhWylXIEHTDQANMQFjAAegQIAhAB&url=http://www.uniquetek.com/store/696296/uploaded/Reloading-Seating-Die-Runout.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0PTrUzbIFGXpTquMkz6CtT

And now, the moment you've been waiting for...
#1 - Redding Competition Seating Die (sliding sleeve type, threaded die)
The Redding, which I expected to finish high, did what I thought couldn't be done - it
produced rounds with an average runout that was less than the average case neck
runout of the brass used. In none of the ten rounds loaded did the Redding increase
the runout; it either held exactly the same or it decreased. The Redding, with an
Average Runout Change of -0.0003" is the winner. The negative sign, of course,
indicates a reduction in runout.
However, it's important to note that we're using a mathematical calculation that gives
a result that is smaller than the precision with which we can measure runout, so take
the numbers as what they are - smaller than we can reliably guarantee and more of a
ranking indicator than an exact measure of probable runout results. This applies to all
the dies.

#2 - Wilson (chamber type, for arbor press)
I expected the Wilson to come out on top, given it's long-standing reputation as the
best seating die and its near universal use in Benchrest shooting. It didn't quite work
out that way, but the Wilson was very good, with only three rounds increasing runout
and an equal number decreasing, the remainder were zero-change. Wilson Average
Runout Change: +0.00015".

#3 - RCBS Standard Die (standard threaded die)
I expected the RCBS to be dead last, maybe by a big margin; was I ever wrong! I
was really surprised, quite pleasantly, by the RCBS die's performance. Three runout
increases, an equal number of decreases and four zero-change made for a very
creditable score. RCBS Average Runout Change: +0.00025".

#4 - Vickerman and Hornady (tie) (both partial sliding sleeve, neck only, threaded
dies)
These dies share a lot in common, being of universal use for a given caliber, in this
case, .30 caliber. You can seat bullets in anything from a .300 Savage to a .300
Winchester Magnum with these dies as they just capture the neck of the case in order
to align it with the bullet. However, as your Economics professor taught you, there is
no free lunch. That universality of application reduces precision, though certainly not
to a level that would render them useless. With more increases in runout than
decreases, the Hornady lost ground. The Vickerman had a lot of zero-change rounds,
but increased 0.002" on a couple and that really hurt it's average performance. So,
the Hornady and Vickerman with an Average Runout Change of +0.0006",
bring up the rear - very much to my surprise. These are very useful dies, however
and let's keep some perspective, with an ARC of about half a thousandth, I wouldn't
be concerned about using them for Highpower match loading.

Update - November 7, 2009
Below is a picture of the targets fired with the ammo loaded for this article (it only
took two months to find a free day for this!). All firing was done at 100 yards, prone,
iron sights with the CSS RT10 Tubegun. All targets have 10 shots, the same 10 that
were in the runout test for each die. I shot the Hornady die ammo first and the group
was a bit low, so I made a small elevation change for the remainder. The RCBS die
ammo certainly looks like the worst, and the Redding the best, but I suspect things
might shift around a bit on a rerun of the test. Conditions were ideal for this testing
and I'm satisfied enough with the way I shot that I don't plan to repeat it. I think all
groups were fired in a consistent manner, none being better ot worse than the others
in terms of overall execution. You can click the picture to enlarge it for more detail.
The targets is the NRA 100 yard Smallbore target, with a center X ring that is 1" in
diameter and the 10 ring is 2" in diameter. I shot on the full target and just cut out
the centers for the picture.

 

[Surfgent]

Cool thread. My Redding Wilson and Forster and Dillon machines all produce about the same for me. Compared to beginning reloading habits and my old rcbs gear. There's not even a comparison. I've been slowly upgrading over the last 2 years and getting rid of many rcbs die sets that I started out with before I knew what concentricity was in a finished product.

 

[PopCharlie]

I've used Redding Competition seater, Lee seater (ordered a custom die for 2 of my rifles) and Whidden micrometer top seater. The best of the 3 for me was the Whidden dies. Get stems made for the bullets you use. My runout percentages improved significantly using the custom stems. I went from 68% less than .002 to 88% less than. 002. Ive been capturing runout stats for about a year now chasing runout issues. I have determined that runout of less than .003 will shoot in my .223 and 6.5x47 bolt guns. My 6br seems to be very tolerant to runout. I believe it's because it is a factory Cooper rifle, with a somewhat less precise chamber cut in it. The other 2 rifles are custom with very precisely cut chambers.
I'm always looking to improve, so I'm trying a Forster benchrest seater to see how it does. I switched to non-bushing full length sizers because they make much straighter brass. I control neck tension with the expander ball.
PopCharlie

 

[PopCharlie]

I've tried seater from the following companies: listed in order of performance (least runout measured on the bullet ogive)
1. Whidden micrometer top with custom stems
2. Whidden with standard stems
3. Redding with standard stems (close 2nd, very good die)
4. Vickerman (a lot of .004s and .005s)
5. Lee custom ( only die that seated bullets measured .006 runout)

 

[PopCharlie]

I've tried seater from the following companies: listed in order of performance (least runout measured on the bullet ogive)
1. Whidden micrometer top with custom stems
2. Whidden with standard stems
3. Redding with standard stems (close 2nd, very good die)
4. Vickerman (a lot of .004s and .005s)
5. Lee custom ( only die that seated bullets measured .006 runout)

Add a Forster benchrest seater to the list. I'm not sure about where it will end up on my list. I got one that does not have the micrometer top. I really like the design of this die. The seating stem is one piece that is held in place by a lock nut. Its not 2 pieces (seating stem and adjustable micrometer top, which also has a stem) like the Redding and Whidden sleeve type seaters. I think with the 2 piece seaters, as the bullet pushes the seating stem up, when it contacts the stem in the adjustable top, the seater stem can move a little causing mis-alignment.
The Forster seater stem is one long piece that is threaded so it can be adjusted up or down. Once set, it can be locked in place.
To set this die up, I screwed it in until the shell holder compressed the sleeve all the way up to the die body, then backed it out 2 turns. I backed the seating stem out to the point where I was pretty sure it would not contact the seated bullet in a dummy round. I then ran the dummy round with the desired bullet seated to the desired depth all the way up. I watched the die to make sure the slop was taken out of the threads. Then I tightened the die lock ring. I then screwed the stem in until I felt firm contact with the bullet. At this point, I tightened the stem lock nut. As long as the dummy round was straight, (.0005 runout on the ogive), this should have aligned everything in the die.
It did. I seated 25 bullets (130 gr Berger VLDs in Lapua 6.5x47 brass). 18 had runout of .000 to .0001. The remaining 7 were more than .001, but less than .0015.
My goal is less than .002. I need to use this die on a few more batches to collect more data, but this was a good start.

 

[bozo699]

Add a Forster benchrest seater to the list. I'm not sure about where it will end up on my list. I got one that does not have the micrometer top. I really like the design of this die. The seating stem is one piece that is held in place by a lock nut. Its not 2 pieces (seating stem and adjustable micrometer top, which also has a stem) like the Redding and Whidden sleeve type seaters. I think with the 2 piece seaters, as the bullet pushes the seating stem up, when it contacts the stem in the adjustable top, the seater stem can move a little causing mis-alignment.
The Forster seater stem is one long piece that is threaded so it can be adjusted up or down. Once set, it can be locked in place.
To set this die up, I screwed it in until the shell holder compressed the sleeve all the way up to the die body, then backed it out 2 turns. I backed the seating stem out to the point where I was pretty sure it would not contact the seated bullet in a dummy round. I then ran the dummy round with the desired bullet seated to the desired depth all the way up. I watched the die to make sure the slop was taken out of the threads. Then I tightened the die lock ring. I then screwed the stem in until I felt firm contact with the bullet. At this point, I tightened the stem lock nut. As long as the dummy round was straight, (.0005 runout on the ogive), this should have aligned everything in the die.
It did. I seated 25 bullets (130 gr Berger VLDs in Lapua 6.5x47 brass). 18 had runout of .000 to .0001. The remaining 7 were more than .001, but less than .0015.
My goal is less than .002. I need to use this die on a few more batches to collect more data, but this was a good start.

That’s been my experience with Forester as well.
Wayne

 

[INTJ]

I'm gearing up for my F-class season, and I'm looking to buy a seater that will produce the straightest match 223 Rem ammo possible. Which seater would you buy? Or other suggestions? Thanks guys!

If you want the straightest and most consistent ammo possible you will load and tune like a long range benchrester. Many F-Class shooters do load that way.

To that end you will have a 21st Century Hydro Seating press and an inline die like a Wilson or similar.

 

[INTJ]

Reloading: Seating Die Runout
Seating Die Induced Runout - A Comparison
by Germán A. Salazar

The link below is in Adobe PDF format and you may need to see where it was downloaded on your computer.

If you do not want to download this then the Redding die and I assume the Forster benchrest seating dies came in 1st place.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjizfLT_IvoAhWylXIEHTDQANMQFjAAegQIAhAB&url=http://www.uniquetek.com/store/696296/uploaded/Reloading-Seating-Die-Runout.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0PTrUzbIFGXpTquMkz6CtT

And now, the moment you've been waiting for...
#1 - Redding Competition Seating Die (sliding sleeve type, threaded die)
The Redding, which I expected to finish high, did what I thought couldn't be done - it
produced rounds with an average runout that was less than the average case neck
runout of the brass used. In none of the ten rounds loaded did the Redding increase
the runout; it either held exactly the same or it decreased. The Redding, with an
Average Runout Change of -0.0003" is the winner. The negative sign, of course,
indicates a reduction in runout.
However, it's important to note that we're using a mathematical calculation that gives
a result that is smaller than the precision with which we can measure runout, so take
the numbers as what they are - smaller than we can reliably guarantee and more of a
ranking indicator than an exact measure of probable runout results. This applies to all
the dies.

#2 - Wilson (chamber type, for arbor press)
I expected the Wilson to come out on top, given it's long-standing reputation as the
best seating die and its near universal use in Benchrest shooting. It didn't quite work
out that way, but the Wilson was very good, with only three rounds increasing runout
and an equal number decreasing, the remainder were zero-change. Wilson Average
Runout Change: +0.00015".

#3 - RCBS Standard Die (standard threaded die)
I expected the RCBS to be dead last, maybe by a big margin; was I ever wrong! I
was really surprised, quite pleasantly, by the RCBS die's performance. Three runout
increases, an equal number of decreases and four zero-change made for a very
creditable score. RCBS Average Runout Change: +0.00025".

#4 - Vickerman and Hornady (tie) (both partial sliding sleeve, neck only, threaded
dies)
These dies share a lot in common, being of universal use for a given caliber, in this
case, .30 caliber. You can seat bullets in anything from a .300 Savage to a .300
Winchester Magnum with these dies as they just capture the neck of the case in order
to align it with the bullet. However, as your Economics professor taught you, there is
no free lunch. That universality of application reduces precision, though certainly not
to a level that would render them useless. With more increases in runout than
decreases, the Hornady lost ground. The Vickerman had a lot of zero-change rounds,
but increased 0.002" on a couple and that really hurt it's average performance. So,
the Hornady and Vickerman with an Average Runout Change of +0.0006",
bring up the rear - very much to my surprise. These are very useful dies, however
and let's keep some perspective, with an ARC of about half a thousandth, I wouldn't
be concerned about using them for Highpower match loading.

Update - November 7, 2009
Below is a picture of the targets fired with the ammo loaded for this article (it only
took two months to find a free day for this!). All firing was done at 100 yards, prone,
iron sights with the CSS RT10 Tubegun. All targets have 10 shots, the same 10 that
were in the runout test for each die. I shot the Hornady die ammo first and the group
was a bit low, so I made a small elevation change for the remainder. The RCBS die
ammo certainly looks like the worst, and the Redding the best, but I suspect things
might shift around a bit on a rerun of the test. Conditions were ideal for this testing
and I'm satisfied enough with the way I shot that I don't plan to repeat it. I think all
groups were fired in a consistent manner, none being better ot worse than the others
in terms of overall execution. You can click the picture to enlarge it for more detail.
The targets is the NRA 100 yard Smallbore target, with a center X ring that is 1" in
diameter and the 10 ring is 2" in diameter. I shot on the full target and just cut out
the centers for the picture.

I too like Redding and Forster competition seating dies. I use Wilson with a Hydro Seater for my LR BR rifles. However, the seater die isn't what makes the round straight. It's the SIZER die that has the most impact. All we hope for from the seater die is to not mess up the perfect case we made with our SIZER die.

He tries to account for that by measuring the runout before and after and looking at the delta, but I am not sure a 1" dial indicator is really the tool for measuring inside of .001". Yes, we can all easily see where 1/2 way in between the lines is, but that doesn't mean we are accurately measuring to .0005."

Given all that, what his test really shows is that Redding and Wilson are doing a good job and the others are not doing as well. When you add in the ability of a Wilson did to be used with a hydro seater that measures seating force, the Wilson becomes a better choice when you are trying for perfection.

 

[bozo699]

I too like Redding and Forster competition seating dies. I use Wilson with a Hydro Seater for my LR BR rifles. However, the seater die isn't what makes the round straight. It's the SIZER die that has the most impact. All we hope for from the seater die is to not mess up the perfect case we made with our SIZER die.

He tries to account for that by measuring the runout before and after and looking at the delta, but I am not sure a 1" dial indicator is really the tool for measuring inside of .001". Yes, we can all easily see where 1/2 way in between the lines is, but that doesn't mean we are accurately measuring to .0005."

Given all that, what his test really shows is that Redding and Wilson are doing a good job and the others are not doing as well. When you add in the ability of a Wilson did to be used with a hydro seater that measures seating force, the Wilson becomes a better choice when you are trying for perfection.

Very well stated.
Wayne