Also, is this barrel chrome lined? When chrome lined barrels get a high round count, the bore takes on the appearance of a dry lake bed which effects accuracy. Really not much you can do to bring accuracy back on these, whereas a ss or cm or one that has been nitrided, can be lapped to get some more useful life
Reasonable ACCURACY lifespan for an AR15 barrel
- Thread starter Bat Rastard
- Start date
Bat Rastard
Gold $$ Contributor
These were new stainless Krieger service rifle barrels. We'll, they were new 24 years ago, lol.
We wore out the barrels we had shooting Highpower. We replaced them with these Kreigers in 2000. Shortly thereafter, life took over, and we stopped shooting Highpower. They have been shot some here and there. I don't think the round count is high enough to need replaced yet, but the targets indicate otherwise. I suppose 24 years of off and on shooting adds up.
I remember them being amazing when new.
I am attaching 2 picture s:
One has 4 groups, the 2 at 9 and 12 oclock is the 80gr load shot in my bolt gun. The other target has 2 groups with the 80gr load from the AR.
I think it is barrel time.
We wore out the barrels we had shooting Highpower. We replaced them with these Kreigers in 2000. Shortly thereafter, life took over, and we stopped shooting Highpower. They have been shot some here and there. I don't think the round count is high enough to need replaced yet, but the targets indicate otherwise. I suppose 24 years of off and on shooting adds up.
I remember them being amazing when new.
I am attaching 2 picture s:
One has 4 groups, the 2 at 9 and 12 oclock is the 80gr load shot in my bolt gun. The other target has 2 groups with the 80gr load from the AR.
I think it is barrel time.
Attachments
Bat Rastard
Gold $$ Contributor
The fliers from the bolt gun didn't fly that far!
It's hard to say which ones flew from the AR.
Those are on a rest, with a bag in back.
It's hard to say which ones flew from the AR.
Those are on a rest, with a bag in back.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
My son-in-law, a police officer asked me if I could show a friend how to disassemble and clean his new S&W M&P AR-15. He had about 200 rounds through it at the time. I bore scoped the barrel and have never, ever seen such a piece of crap barrel, gouges, missing sections of lands, most of the barrel was continuous spiral cuts through the rifling. I would have been afraid to fire the damn thing.
S&W should be ashamed to let a barrel leave their factory in such a condition. But then again all they cared about was getting another AR to the market and compete against the other manufacturers. I wish I had taken pictures of the barrel. An absolute POS.
That’s good information. Bad on S&W.
Bat Rastard
Gold $$ Contributor
How did it shoot?
mike mccormick
Silver $$ Contributor
I hate to burst your bubble, but there are plenty of competitors pulling cleans with high x counts at 600yds. That's with a 4.5× scope, slung up. ARs will definitely shoot.
While I do not own an AR and haven't shot one since I was in the Army, eons ago, I have personally witnessed an experienced shooter at the range shoot 1/2 to sub 1/2 moa groups at 100 yards with an AR that had a heavy match barrel and using tuned reloads.
Granted, it was an aftermarket match barrel, but I was totally amazed at the groups he was shoot in slow fire mode.
Longtrain
Gold $$ Contributor
I shot XTC for years with an AR and iron sights. Given that the target is fairly generous, you need to have all the skills of a good marksman, sight alignment, using a sling properly, breath and trigger control. Standing at 200 yds with no sling, watching your wobble area swing back and forth, settling in and breaking the shot is not for the faint of heart. It takes skill and lots of practice. The timed rapid strings at 200 & 300 yds are often done with high X counts and finally 600 yd slow fire would test anyone’s abilities. Under these conditions the AR is amazingly accurate. Given that scopes are now allowed, I’m sure that the number of High Masters has increased.
Focusing on one sight is much easier than aligning a rear sight, the front post and the target ball. Are they bechrest rifles, IMO no, but an accurate arm they certainly are.
Last edited:
searcher
Gold $$ Contributor
I have a "lot" of different A/R's and bolt guns dedicated to shooting varmints. All have heavy, 24" or 26" barrels, mostly chambered in .223 and .20 Practical. The barrels are a pretty good mix, being Krieger, Hart and Shilen. I use bullets which weigh 55 grains and under in all - so that probably influences barrel wear quite a bit, as does choice of powders. That said, I have four barrels still in service with well over 6,000 rounds on them, and they all shoot around 1/2" MOA - with a few shooting well less than that - more like 3/8". I don't baby them when on a hot squirrel hunt, and will shoot several hundred rounds from a particular rifle before switching off to another rifle. They get HOT and I don't clean them until the end of the day. I do get a few fliers here and there - but if I miss a squirrel or so - it matters little to me. If I had thinner barrels, these things would likely be toast long ago. If I were target shooting, I'd not tolerate the fliers and would have changed these out long ago. So I'd say it depends on what you use your rifle for. If you suspect that you have less than 3,000 rounds on your .223 and it is no longer shooting as well, unless you got it REALLY hot, I'd guess you have something else going on with your rig. A lot of guys settle on a powder that didn't give them a really wide accuracy window at different powder charges and after a while, the velocity changes a bit on the tube due to wear and it gives the illusion the barrel is shot. Before you ditch the barrel, I'd try laddering powder charges it as though it were a new rifle, trying out a few different powders in the process. If Shooting 55-and-under bullets, I'd start with Accurate LT32, 8208XBR and Reloader 7. Most rigs will shoot one of these powders well with 40-55grn bullets. With heavier bullets in the fast-twist tubes (like 1-7) then to the Varget and other slower powders. Those .223 barrels will shoot pretty good for many thousands of rounds as a rule - but if you are competing with it, using heavier bullets - you might find it as possibly time to replace with as few as 2,500 rounds. The twist on my .223 tubes ranges from 1-12" to 1-8". In my experience, the faster the twist, the faster the barrel will show wear on target. A 1-7" shooting heavier bullets (69grn+) will show wear much faster than a 1-9" shooting 50 grain bullets, etc.
Make sure the barrel isn't full of copper, I use Flitz.
Clean the barrel the regular way, dry it. then Flitz it several times, see what the rags look like, if black keep on maybe 5-6 times back & forth until clean rags come out the barrel.
If you abused the barrel, it could be worn, or the muzzle isn't right. Either fix it or buy a new one. Anybody can replace a barrel on an AR. Most of mine have more rounds than you have & still shoot under 3/4" with common bullets, match bullets in .5.
Clean the barrel the regular way, dry it. then Flitz it several times, see what the rags look like, if black keep on maybe 5-6 times back & forth until clean rags come out the barrel.
If you abused the barrel, it could be worn, or the muzzle isn't right. Either fix it or buy a new one. Anybody can replace a barrel on an AR. Most of mine have more rounds than you have & still shoot under 3/4" with common bullets, match bullets in .5.
I finally discarded my last AR barrel (a Nordic 18" 1/8 twist) after what must have been around 95.-10k rounds. It was Wilson button rifled blank. It had a pretty serious firing schedule and wasn't babied.
When new it would hold in the 3/4" range, and I shot it a ton out past 600+ yards. It had a steady diet of 75 gr BTHP's over Varget and H4895.
When shot out, it would still hold under 1.5" at 100 yards, but the velocity was down and the vertical dispersion made hits at long range much more challenging.
I would say that 5k is the limit for good accuracy, and 3-3.5k for excellent accuracy, depending on the barrel.
When new it would hold in the 3/4" range, and I shot it a ton out past 600+ yards. It had a steady diet of 75 gr BTHP's over Varget and H4895.
When shot out, it would still hold under 1.5" at 100 yards, but the velocity was down and the vertical dispersion made hits at long range much more challenging.
I would say that 5k is the limit for good accuracy, and 3-3.5k for excellent accuracy, depending on the barrel.
c3d4b2
Silver $$ Contributor
This matches my experience.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Did anyone else catch the latest installment of the Hornady Podcast on YoutTube about Barrel Cleaning? It really had as much to do with showing some barrel life (data?) estimates for their lab test barrels/guns as it did about cleaning. They even differentiate between what was verbally described as Hot pressure versus Medium pressures, and also 556 separated from 223.
They have a big screen up during the talk where you can see a variety of cartridges showing their estimated shot counts to cleaning and to the point of the OPs issue, the bbl life.
You end up having to listen to the whole thing to glean some idea of exactly what was used for the criteria, and it is still not very clear, but in general they show a low, average, and high value for cleaning interval and barrel life. At 07:34, they stated that the barrel life shown was a "general changes of P-V and dispersion, kind of a blend".... How exactly this was done with their lab data isn't shown.
In any case, I'll link the episode it for what it is worth and warn you it is 72 minutes long in total.
It would certainly be worthy of a technical publication of the whole show in my opinion, since few outfits have the opportunity to burn up so many different bbls in such a variety of calibers, bullets, and powders, as the folks who sell bullets and publish load books.
Here are some screenshots of the 223 and 556 parts. Red was their "high pressure" and yellow was their medium pressure. If we combine 223 and 556 for best/worst estimates, they show from 6700 to 3800 rounds.
I have killed Service Rifle barrels using 77 and 80 SMK with both RE15 and Varget in less rounds, but I will add that the first place I detect the end of life is at the 300 rapids.
My theory is the heat from the cadence of two rapid strings at the sitting and prone stages contributes to lower shot count than if that same shot count were allowed to run slower and cool off.
A bbl used for rapids practice and club matches will still shoot at 600 when showing signs of opening up at 300, YMMV
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
They have a big screen up during the talk where you can see a variety of cartridges showing their estimated shot counts to cleaning and to the point of the OPs issue, the bbl life.
You end up having to listen to the whole thing to glean some idea of exactly what was used for the criteria, and it is still not very clear, but in general they show a low, average, and high value for cleaning interval and barrel life. At 07:34, they stated that the barrel life shown was a "general changes of P-V and dispersion, kind of a blend".... How exactly this was done with their lab data isn't shown.
In any case, I'll link the episode it for what it is worth and warn you it is 72 minutes long in total.
It would certainly be worthy of a technical publication of the whole show in my opinion, since few outfits have the opportunity to burn up so many different bbls in such a variety of calibers, bullets, and powders, as the folks who sell bullets and publish load books.
Here are some screenshots of the 223 and 556 parts. Red was their "high pressure" and yellow was their medium pressure. If we combine 223 and 556 for best/worst estimates, they show from 6700 to 3800 rounds.
I have killed Service Rifle barrels using 77 and 80 SMK with both RE15 and Varget in less rounds, but I will add that the first place I detect the end of life is at the 300 rapids.
My theory is the heat from the cadence of two rapid strings at the sitting and prone stages contributes to lower shot count than if that same shot count were allowed to run slower and cool off.
A bbl used for rapids practice and club matches will still shoot at 600 when showing signs of opening up at 300, YMMV
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.