RCBS 10 10 Scale Accurizing

[SOTXLR]

It's not too important exactly where the magnets are, as long as they're well clear of the damping blade. What is important is that they are not moving around, particularly on the 10/10.

Why on the 10/10 I hear you ask? The beam on the 10/10 scale is non magnetic, as with all modern scales, however, on the 10/10 the spigot where the auxiliary weight hangs IS magnetic, it's only an inch away from the damping magnets and I'm sure does have a slight effect. Probably not much of a problem if the magnets are fixed and the pull is consistent but, as with all delicate measurements, consistency is the key.

I believe it's this ferrous spigot causing the movement you observe when you place a magnet near the beam.

It doesn't seem very practical having to do this constantly, Is it just the nature of the beast?

When I work on the 10/10 scales I usually place a small strip of felt where the beam crashes down, it makes the scales much nicer to use.

HOZ53
The thin spring strip on the 10/10 is an approach to weight indicator device. A scale without this device, say a 505, will only start to read when it's just a couple of grains off it's set weight, if you throw a charge and it's 2.5 or 5.5 grains light the scale will still be stuck on the bottom.
With the 10/10, the spring strip acts on the bottom of the damper blade and starts to lift the beam off the bottom stop at around 5 grains, this makes for a much smoother beam lift when trickling to weight.

This device is also found on the RCBS 5-10 and funnily enough on the Lee scale.

Yessss!! This makes a lot of sense! I knew the dampening magnets had something to do with it, but could not figure out why. I also had noticed that the spigot for the auxiliary weight was magnetic but assumed Ohaus had made sure it was far enough to not be affected by the magnets.

Additionally (for those interested) the effects of the magnets on the auxiliary weight spigot are also seen as the blades move forward or backward on the agate bearings. That small amount of play is enough to affect the return to zero after weighing.

Do you really have to baby the scale when removing the pan, adjusting the large or small poise? I have resorted to holding the beam down when moving either poise as well as making sure the position of the blades on the agates is unchanged, after every adjustment and weighted charge.

Should I not expect it to go back to EXACTLY the same spot every time and consider that part of the +/- 0.1 gr?

 

[SOTXLR]

Is your scale one of the new ones that were made in Mexico. I mention that because the fellow that tunes scales professionally mentioned that they are not suitable for his tuning. I have three scales that I have tuned. This involves several steps. The main one that affects the consistency of where the pointer stops is sharpening and deburring the knife edges, and cleaning the bearing pockets and agate bearings. I think that if you address these areas you will find that your problem will disappear. The part that the magnets act on are not magnetic, damping is achieved by the creation of eddy currents which depend on motion of a conductor within a magnetic field for their creation and continuity. When the motion stops they disappear.

No, I made sure it was a made in NJ scale.

 

[sparker]

I have noticed that some scales have developed a permanent magnetic field in their beams. I have tested this several times by exchanging beams with the scale body. The problem follows the beam. Remove the magnets, and the problem goes away. The problem most typically manifests itself in not allowing the beam to achieve zero. Add a kernel, the beam goes 2/10ths high, take it out, it goes low. Lower the leveling foot and the beam still points low, etc. I have tried a demagnetizer with no luck. This is one issue for which i have not yet developed a cure. I'd love to get some advise from someone far more knowledgeable than me.

Scott Parker

 

[BoydAllen]

Scott,
Since every part of the 10-10 beam pointer end except for the auxiliary weight hanger is non magnetic material, if the beams that you are having the trouble with have that feature, would removing it solve the problem? If they do not have that feature then it becomes more interesting ;-)

 

[1066]

Yessss!! This makes a lot of sense! I knew the dampening magnets had something to do with it, but could not figure out why. I also had noticed that the spigot for the auxiliary weight was magnetic but assumed Ohaus had made sure it was far enough to not be affected by the magnets.

Do you really have to baby the scale when removing the pan, adjusting the large or small poise? I have resorted to holding the beam down when moving either poise as well as making sure the position of the blades on the agates is unchanged, after every adjustment and weighted charge.

Should I not expect it to go back to EXACTLY the same spot every time and consider that part of the +/- 0.1 gr?

When the 10/10 was first made (1970's?) I don't think we were quite so obsessed with 1 kernel accuracy, a tenth of a grain was, and still is, good accuracy from what is a very simple device. A few years ago a 1 moa factory rifle was something you talked about in the clubhouse, now it's only so-so, we just expect more.

The magnets could be easily stuck in place by packing round them with some Blu tack etc.

When a camera, magnifying glass and extended pointer is added to a good beam scale, single kernel accuracy is easily achieved and observed but, as with all things mechanical, there are losses in the system. An ideal knife edge would be infinite sharpness on an infinitely hard bearing - Think razor blade on a diamond. The knife edge on a beam scale is far from this ideal. Under high magnification the knife edge of an average beam scale looks like a blunt cold chisel. It's a balance between cost, effectiveness and robustness.

Innovative design of the Lee scale have overcome some of these problems - The knife edge is a razor sharp strip, hidden out of harms way and it's obviously cheap to make. The single point pan suspension system is a far better mechanical idea than the traditional stirrup system and it also has an approach to weight system - If only Lee had designed it as a $100 scale rather than a $20 scale - Remember the heart of the $3,000+ Prometheus is only a humble, basic beam scale.

The spring strip on the 5-10 and 10/10 only has any effect when it beam is on the bottom stop, once the beam has lifted off the bottom it leaves the spring behind and becomes free floating.

I feel cushioning the bottom stop is a good idea. The jarring that occurs when the pan is removed, maybe dozens of times, each time the scale is used, can't do any good to those delicate knife edges - you wouldn't tap your best hunting knife on a steel block 50 times and not expect it to have an effect.

 

[1066]

Scott,
Since every part of the 10-10 beam pointer end except for the auxiliary weight hanger is non magnetic material, if the beams that you are having the trouble with have that feature, would removing it solve the problem? If they do not have that feature then it becomes more interesting ;-)

The 10/10 weight hanger is a push and stake fit in the beam, it can quite easily be removed and a brass nut and bolt of suitable size and weight substituted. This won't effect the scale in normal use. Just need to be aware that the hanger stud is actually a little knife edge so a brass substitute may give false readings if the weight is hung on a brass bolt for heavy weighing.

Interestingly - The 5-10 beam is the same as the 10/10 (Interchangeable). It has the hole for the stud but no stud fitted.

 

[hoz53]

The 10/10 weight hanger is a push and stake fit in the beam, it can quite easily be removed and a brass nut and bolt of suitable size and weight substituted. This won't effect the scale in normal use. Just need to be aware that the hanger stud is actually a little knife edge so a brass substitute may give false readings if the weight is hung on a brass bolt for heavy weighing.

Interestingly - The 5-10 beam is the same as the 10/10 (Interchangeable). It has the hole for the stud but no stud fitted.

Now are some of you guys talking about the weight hanger and other guys talking about the knurled knob/level adjuster?

 

[sparker]

Since every part of the 10-10 beam pointer end except for the auxiliary weight hanger is non magnetic material, if the beams that you are having the trouble with have that feature, would removing it solve the problem? If they do not have that feature then it becomes more interesting ;-)[/QUOTE]

Hi Boyd. I have seen this with beams without the aux. weight spigot. I am firmly convinced it has to do with leaving the beam on the scale for years in a particular position.

Scott

 

[BillPa]

Getting back to dampening and magnets, a fellow on another site replaced the original magnets in his Lee with neodymium magnets then posted this video on Youtube.

I thought I'd try in them is a old D5 I had tuned , it's beam went up-down up down until it got tired so I bought a few 1/2"x1/2"x 1/4" N42s. They worked....but too well. The beam moved like the dampening plate was in molasses on a cold day. . When setting the pan on the support it required six-seven seconds until the beam slowly moved and stopped at the zero hash mark. The good, it didn't over shoot it the zero.
Thinking maybe less would be more I tried using only one N42, that cut the time to two seconds and again it stopped right at the zero hash mark. Afterward I used various combinations of weights to check-recheck it's accuracy, repeatably which didn't change.

Bill

 

[danny]

I have noticed that some scales have developed a permanent magnetic field in their beams. I have tested this several times by exchanging beams with the scale body. The problem follows the beam. Remove the magnets, and the problem goes away. The problem most typically manifests itself in not allowing the beam to achieve zero. Add a kernel, the beam goes 2/10ths high, take it out, it goes low. Lower the leveling foot and the beam still points low, etc. I have tried a demagnetizer with no luck. This is one issue for which i have not yet developed a cure. I'd love to get some advise from someone far more knowledgeable than me.

Scott Parker

Scott does this sometimes also cause the beam to sit high instead of low, as noted? I have a scale or two that acts like that. Since the beam itself is not ferrous, and you demagnatized with no luck, could it be caused by the knife edge being rotated a bit in the beam?

Danny

 

[Stan Taylor]

I am very pleased to see this post, because I just received a 10-10 scale new in the box bought in 2002, an have been weighting some things checking the accuracy hoped to learn a few little tricks about them in case I decided to use it.

 

[danny]

I am very pleased to see this post, because I just received a 10-10 scale new in the box bought in 2002, an have been weighting some things checking the accuracy hoped to learn a few little tricks about them in case I decided to use it.

You need to get that fine piece of machinery out and start making loads with it!

Danny

 

[Stan Taylor]

You need to get that fine piece of machinery out and start making loads with it!

Danny

Danny
I'll tell you what's ironic the gentleman that brought that to me he bought that in 2002 I just put together a 6br for him and he wanted to use electronic scales and he brought those 1010 scales to my work and handed them to me said Merry Christmas and what's really strange the receipt in the Box is on my birthday.

 

[danny]

Danny
I'll tell you what's ironic the gentleman that brought that to me he bought that in 2002 I just put together a 6br for him and he wanted to use electronic scales and he brought those 1010 scales to my work and handed them to me said Merry Christmas and what's really strange the receipt in the Box is on my birthday.View attachment 1143710

That was your lucky day. I am a confirmed balance beam scale user, unless I need to start weighing bullets and cases. Then I will get something adequate in an electronic scale just for that

Danny

 

[JFrank]

Danny
I'll tell you what's ironic the gentleman that brought that to me he bought that in 2002 I just put together a 6br for him and he wanted to use electronic scales and he brought those 1010 scales to my work and handed them to me said Merry Christmas and what's really strange the receipt in the Box is on my birthday.View attachment 1143710

Stan
Look on the box for a point of origin

 

[Stan Taylor]

Stan
Look on the box for a point of origin

Jim
Are you referring to where there made.

 

[JFrank]

Yep

 

[JMayo]

I've got one for sale .... For the right price.

 

[bobinpa]

I've got one for sale .... For the right price.

PM sent.

 

[JFrank]

Jim
Are you referring to where there made.

They all say that on the bottom but check the cardboard box