Ran out of elevation at 600yds

[chkunz]

When I think I'm going to be close on adjustment range, I have always used an optical collimator to make sure the crosshair is still moving while I'm clicking up. I have had scopes that quit adjusting while the knobs were still turning. Another possibility is that you don't have true 1/4 min. clicks. I know Leupold makes fine scopes, but I have found some that were closer to 1/3 min. clicks and some were closer to 1/5 min. Many years ago, a Leupold exec. told me he wished they had bought the Micro Trac patent from Weaver when Weaver closed up shop in El Paso -- they had the opportunity, he said. You can check this also with an optical collimator or put it on a target with known size squares, being careful not to move the rifle in the rest when adjusting scope.

No disagreement here but let me give you my experience. I have three of the Leupold VX-3 scopes that I have bought over the last ten years. Last winter I bought a scope checker and did a rigorous test of the tracking. This was no small effort or expense and I gave a report of the testing and the test procedure and the results on this forum. My scopes tested near perfect. Yours may not give the same results if subjected to the same testing but based on my experience I would recommend that the OP look elsewhere for his problem (hint, hint, the mount).

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Thanks to everyone for your input so far.
I counted my clicks from 200 yard zero to the end of windage and elevation adjustments today and here is what I found.

# of moa to end of adjustment from 200yd zero:

From top: 19 min

from bottom: 32 min

from right: 33 min

from left: 21 min


looks like the sight is relatively centered in the tube for my 200yd zero. Additionally, I have 19 minutes of elevation available to get my 6mm 105 hybrid (2800 fps) from 200 yards to 600 yards. 15 MOA should be more than enough which theoretically gives me a few MOA to spare.
So, all the numbers seem to suggest that I should be able to use this scope and mount out to 600 yards without any issues. The only thing I can think of is maybe the sight is not actually moving with each turn of the knob. So for example, perhaps I dialed the knob for 19 minutes but the sight is only moving for a fraction of that amount.

This seems like kind of a longshot to me but it is the only thing that I can think of. The obvious solution appears to be getting a mount with 20 MOA Built into it. But it would be nice to know if something is wrong with my scope. I suppose I will need to send it to Leupold for an assessment.

-Trevor

I sort of disagree that the scope is centered, especially in the windage area. However, leaving all that aside and the fact you can dial the equivalent of 19MOA up, does certainly seem to indicate you should get to 600yards.

My predilection these days is 1000 yard competition, and while I'm local (within one hour's drive) of the club where I shoot those comps, I also have access to a private club just 20 minutes away with a maximum of 200 yards. When I do stuff on my 1000yard rifle, like scope adjustments or swaps, or load development, I use what I call a thermometer target. It's a big carboard 48 inches tall and 36 inches wide. I have several vertical lines drawn on it, with inches marked off above 26 inches. I have nice Xs painted at the bottom of each vertical line.

I take my thermometer target and I staple it on the cross bars at 100 yards, with the bottom targets just above the grass. When I shoot, I aim at those bottom little targets and the bullet holes show up on paper (cardboard) at 30-some inches above, (right in the middle of the crossmembers) and the bullets impact the berm.

I can play with the dials on the riflescope and watch the impact move accordingly. This is what I would recommend you do with your setup. Shoot a few rounds at the 200 yards setting and then add in the elevation and watch to see if the bullet holes show up where you expected them to be, something like 16 inches above the 200 yard impacts.

It's actually a lot of fun to do this, as I usually have the scope magnification set at 40X and I don't even see the bullet holes in my scope, I have to use my spotting scope to see them, 30 inches above point of aim.

Saves a lot of time and ammo. And frustration.

 

[Killick]

here is A picture of me shooting my service rifle with a similar forward mounted scope mount. As you notice, my eye has about 2 inches of a relief or so Even though the scope is far forward on the receiver

View attachment 1187267

Trev, you should be in the circus with position. I tried a similar position at Pendleton and got nailed by a RO for an illegal position...ruined my day.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Trev, you should be in the circus with position. I tried a similar position at Pendleton and got nailed by a RO for an illegal position...ruined my day.

Yeah, like they know how to shoot rifles at Pendleton.

 

[Lone Hunter]

Not trying to be a S.A. But have you turned the mount around and see how that works.

 

[Killick]

Yeah, like they know how to shoot rifles at Pendleton.

Pretty harsh Turt.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Pretty harsh Turt.

You did notice the smirk emoji at the bottom of my post, right?

 

[Killick]

You did notice the smirk emoji at the bottom of my post, right?

not through my tears...

 

[Hengehold]

Trev, you should be in the circus with position. I tried a similar position at Pendleton and got nailed by a RO for an illegal position...ruined my day.

yes, I have had to deal with that also. I have to be careful that my elbow is NOT below my ankle or touching my foot that is under the leg to provide elevation. I definitely have to be cognizant of my position so it does not turn into an illegal position.

 

[Hengehold]

Not trying to be a S.A. But have you turned the mount around and see how that works.

I can not use it for my match shooting purposes if I turn it around but it may help indicate if there is an issue with the orientation of the mount.

 

[davidjoe]

To my eyes, it looks like your scope points slightly upward relative to the barrel. I can easily discern a typical decline base, and yours is much more subtle than that, if it points upward at all. But an upward angle would explain your high turret adjustment.

edit, your upward and downward counting of remaining adjustment from 200 would show it’s working fine. Decline bases compress internal springs at close range like loading/storing full magazines do, so if you don’t need them your scope will be better off.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I found this gadget at White Oak Armament:
https://www.whiteoakarmament.com/extended-scope-rail-10-min-elev-1827.html

That might be the gadget for you.

 

[Sundown]

looks to me that the mount is too far forward and is off the picatinny rail. Would this lead to the scope pointing down to begin with? The mount itself doesn't have any elevation adjustment, but if the picatinny rail is a 20 MOA rail it could be on backwards.

on the other hand if I got in that position, it wouldn't be on purpose and I would need help get up!!!

 

[gme]

everything I build gets a 20 MOA rail standard, more for some applications like FTR

 

[gdbleb]

Having just done a scope on a XTC Match rifle (CLE in my case) it looks like that Vortex unimount might be too far forward to engage the forward dovetail wedge completely on the rail. It sure looks like screw #1 is off the rail on the WOA? upper and screw #2 is only half on. Curious how the other side looks.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I would lap the Vortex mount(ring portion), see if that helps the 60/40 right/left windage. And as stated there maybe clicks at the end of the adjustment that are not "true 1/4 moa". Shoot a full adjustment box test to see what you actually have available for travel, walk the shoots with the turrets.

 

[fyrewall]

I fight this problem frequently with my skinny 1 inch tube scopes. Running out of elevation with a 1 inch tube scope at 600 is not unusual. I use 20 MOA mounts and that fixes the problem (back end of scope jacked up)

I also use Burris Signature Zee rings, +20 bottom back, -20 top back, + 20 top front. - 20 bottom front - this fixes the problem.

Playing around with ballistic calculators show less scope internal adjustment needed as scope height increases. For example, the Hornady 4DOF Ballistic Calculator, 200 Yard zero, 75ELDM @ 3250, 1.5 scope height, 23.34 MOA up @ 1,000; 2.5 scope height 22.95 MOA up at 1,000. This is only about 4 inches at 1,000.

According to the Hornady 4DOF program only about 11.5 MOA is needed to go up to 600 with the 105 Berger Hybrid bullet, 200 yard zero, at 2800. The OP states that he has 19 MOA elevation remaining with a 200 zero. Should be about 7.5 MOA to spare. That is 1/2 complete rev on elevation dial. My guess is that there is some sort of internal adjustment disparity inside the scope - looks like dials from Leupold custom shop fitted onto a VX3i. Possibly, see what happens at 200 with a zero, then crank the elevation dial up to 11.5 MOA, then to its max, 19 MOA - group should be 2 feet high to hit at 600 and and if 11.5 MOA does not get 2 feet up the elevation adjustment values are not as indicated - provided 2800 fps.

I have found the Hornady 4DOF program reasonably accurate, easily used and available.

After getting zeros at different ranges I carefully make notes of how my scopes were set and how much movement was done to get there. A Leupold rep once told me that my adjustments on a retro fit set of dials would be uniform but not necessarily 1/4 min per click or 1 moa per 4 clicks - but real close?

Is the mount completely engaged to the Picatinny rail - not tilted up ?

 

[KY_Windage]

The only thing I can think of is maybe the sight is not actually moving with each turn of the knob. So for example, perhaps I dialed the knob for 19 minutes but the sight is only moving for a fraction of that amount.

You can easily test that at 50 or 100 yards with a "tall target" test.

 

[searcher]

everything I build gets a 20 MOA rail standard, more for some applications like FTR

I do this too. Most every scope I use on my varmint rifles (mostly Night force and Sightron) run out of elevation somewhere between 600 and 700 yards without a sloped rail. The shim in the rear will get you a bit more but either putting 20 degree risers on your rail or (preferrably) a nice mount like the Night force uni-mount with built-in 20 degree cant

 

[coldboreshot]

View attachment 1187066 View attachment 1187065 View attachment 1187063 I have a Leupold VX-3i (1 inch body tube) and a Vortex 1 piece scope mount. I was shooting this on top of my AR15 at 600yds and ran out of elevation.

Is this normal to run out of elevation at 600yds?View attachment 1187064

is the only solution to buy a scope mount that has elevation built into it or am I doing something wrong with the scope?
-Trevor

Ok, first off, the height of the scope is perfectly fine. It needs to be set for your geometry, not what others believe it should be. I have to have 1.90" height to set to my geometry and I run my AR 5.56 platform out to 800 yards with no issue. If I'm not mistaken, that model scope only offers 52moa full travel so the mechanical split should be 26. The height does add mechanical differential but if you go with something like a Warne Exskell mount in 20moa, you should be fine. Or a Vortex 20moa mount. Whatever floats yur boat. My 1 pc mounts tend to be on the pricier side, but you don't have to break the bank for something effective.