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Quickload

Barrel time is a bit difficult in these simulation models. The reason for that is that the approximation made in these models is that the burning rate is proportional to pressure. Which is a good approximation, but really, burning rate is a function of temperature. The powder column is actually ignited by radiant heat from a stream of incandescent particles that come out of the primer, but that is not the way the deflagration gets started in these models. In these models, some arbitrary chamber pressure is assumed to exist as a starting condition and then things take off from there. So, the time it takes to get to maximum chamber pressure will depend to some extent on what starting pressure is chosen. You will see in all the models that in the pressure vs time curve, the pressure does not start at zero....

As for "measure of uncertainty", how would you gauge that? Do the run again for one grain more and one grain less of powder? One grain more and one grain less of usable case capacity? Both together? That is a bit arbitrary and the uncertainly would grow as the load density approached 100%. By all means, you can do this for yourself. But without some agreed way of how the "measure of uncertainty" is determined, it does not really have much meaning.
I believe the way quickload handles barrel time is really "time from 10% of peak pressure". Maybe that's not super useful, so I see your point. And by measure of uncertainty, I mean just as simple guide - the powder data is hidden behind the covers, so we don't know how variable the various thermodynamic inputs are. If you can do some back of the envelope calculations saying peak pressure is likely to be within x of the calculation, that would be great. Perhaps that's not easily doable given the nature and sources of the data. Lacking any estimate of how close the calculations are likely to be to reality, shooters may tend to overestimate the precision and accuracy of the calculations, especially given that they don't have a way to test it themselves (as you can with an external ballistics calculator, for example).

But overall, I really like it. It gets to the point without a lot of extraneous stuff in the way. Is there any way to infer the data your model requires from that provided by quickload?
 
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So if I use a program to duplicate an audio cd the results are mine and okay as long as I don't try to sell or duplicate the app?
Audio is copyrighted. You can only copy it if your use falls under the “fair use” category (things like making personal backups). Same goes for the program itself. The output of quickload isn’t copyrighted.
 
The Quickload output may not be copyrighted, but you can't generate an output in the first place without having the actual program. As the sole distributor in the U.S., Neco has a stake in Quickload, regardless of whether they wrote the software or not. It's in their best financial interest for customers to buy a copy, not have someone else do it for free over the internet. Unlike Ed, I don't consider taking steps to protect that greed, but rather a good business practice. Pointing out various loopholes that make it legally possible to post Quickload outputs on shooting forums so other people don't have to buy a copy is merely an attempt to justify that action. That doesn't make it right. In fact, taking advantage of such loopholes for personal benefit is probably a much better definition of "greed" than Ed's original use of the term.

I personally try to support the companies like Neco that advertise here at Accurate Shooter as much as I can, not engage in actions that may have an adverse effect on their business.
 
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as a mac user I am not able to take advantage of this software without significant obstacles. I wish that were not so
 
I would be interested to know why you think GRT is better...?


It just doesnt need all the tweaking like QL and I also like the “half node” function, i think the developer of GRT is just spending more time updating the componenets like powders. In QL you always have to adjust the burn rate (some a hell of a lot) and weighting factor and what not and I could never really nail down wildcats to work 100% with QL.
I ran the GRT simulator on all my rifles and they were all withing 50fps with the default data and after I adjusted the measured speed my known accurate loads were within .1 to .2gr with GRT.

The last while I used ocw, a ladder and Erics 100y for long range load development on my 6SLR to “test” them against each other and the accurate load that im using after all that was .1gr off when I ran all of my data through GRT.

I still prefer using a ladder at distance or Erics 100y method but I like having a visual aid “telling” me whats going on. For a general hunting load id be more than happy to just use GRT

Another thing GRT is doing correct imo is he has people all over the world helping him update and test/develop his program. We have a person in SA with 1000s of hours of actually logged data for many many calibers/powder combos also working with them helping to keep everything updated.

Im not saying one program is better or even better than actual range time the one just seems to get there quicker
 
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I ran the GRT simulator on all my rifles and they were all withing 50fps with the default data and after I adjusted the measured speed my known accurate loads were within .1 to .2gr with GRT.

So basically, you prefer GRT because it is more accurate? There seems to be a lot of grumbling that QL powder libraries are inaccurate or have not been updated. Would you share that view?

Another thing GRT is doing correct imo is he has people all over the world helping him update and test/develop his program. We have a person in SA with 1000s of hours of actually logged data for many many calibers/powder combos also working with them helping to keep everything updated.

Yeah, I worry about that as a business model. Right now, GRT is free to download and use, but a HUGE amount of effort - and personal expense by the 'development team' - is going into generating the powder models and developing the program and quite frankly, that is unsustainable. Once GRT has a good library of powder data, it will be interesting to see if 'Gordon' (whoever he is) decides to pivot towards a more commercial approach to making his software available.
 
So basically, you prefer GRT because it is more accurate? There seems to be a lot of grumbling that QL powder libraries are inaccurate or have not been updated. Would you share that view?

Yeah, I worry about that as a business model. Right now, GRT is free to download and use, but a HUGE amount of effort - and personal expense by the 'development team' - is going into generating the powder models and developing the program and quite frankly, that is unsustainable. Once GRT has a good library of powder data, it will be interesting to see if 'Gordon' (whoever he is) decides to pivot towards a more commercial approach to making his software available.
Why not get a "GoFundMe" website started & get a version of GK or GRT fully developed & tested for "Shooter's Forum". o_O
 
I've really done no research on Quickload, but had considered looking into it and saw this thread. Can those who have purchased the program and have used it fairly extensively comment on its worth?

I may see this differently than some, but I don't think a company is greedy for trying to sell a product. That's business. I'd just buy the program if I wanted the data. Seems fair.
 
I've really done no research on Quickload, but had considered looking into it and saw this thread. Can those who have purchased the program and have used it fairly extensively comment on its worth?

I may see this differently than some, but I don't think a company is greedy for trying to sell a product. That's business. I'd just buy the program if I wanted the data. Seems fair.

I typically start by making a prediction/estimate using all the pertinent inputs for which I actually have solid values (barrel length, bullet OAL, case trim length, case volume, COAL, etc.), together with the factory preset powder file values. I then adjust the charge weight in the program to find [predicted] MAX pressure. Where possible for a given barrel length and bullet weight, I then reduce the charge weight incrementally in the program until the predicted barrel time matches an OBT Node, further reduce that charge weight by ~2%, then load round and get an actual velocity for that charge weight. Once back home, I then input the correct temperature and adjust the burn rate (Ba) until the predicted velocity exactly matches the measured averaged velocity for that charge weight. I refer to this process as "calibrating" the program to a particular setup.

Once the program has been calibrated to particular setup (rifle/powder/bullet/brass/etc.), I find the predicted values QL generates to be pretty good within a certain range. The farther away the actual load ends up from the calibration charge weight, the more it may need to be tweaked. The program treats certain outputs as being perfectly linear, but they often are not. It's not a problem, I continually tweak and re-tweak files during the load development process then save the new files, so I end up with a series of files over time that represent the load development process, the individual files being identified by date, among other things.

If you use Chris Long's OBT Node theory as a guide to load development, QL is indispensable. A program like QL is the only way most shooters can readily obtain barrel time values. In the grand scheme of things, I probably don't use even one third of the features QL has. Nonetheless, I find it a useful tool to expedite the load development process. QL will not make load evaluation unnecessary - you still have to load rounds, shoot them, and evaluate the targets. However, I find that it makes it faster and simpler to get a load dialed in. For that reason alone it is worth the cost. However, it is also useful for making estimates of reasonably achievable velocities for a given barrel length, the approximate pressures that may be associated with such loads, how COAL and freebore length affect pressure/velocity, optimizing powder choices, and a host of other things. So I also find it useful when having a new rifle built, or having a barrel chambered for bullet and/or I haven't previously used.
 
I've really done no research on Quickload, but had considered looking into it and saw this thread. Can those who have purchased the program and have used it fairly extensively comment on its worth?

I use it very much in the same way as Ned Ludd described above. So, I'm not going to repeat all that and just say that because I found QL app to be so very useful in getting a rather good ball park predictions for new loads when changing up and using different components, it saves time and expense for any of my load development, though I still have to go out the the range and test and tweak. That makes it more than worth the expense of the app.
 
In my opinion, the reason QL misses out on potential sales isn’t because someone shares the output data. It’s because their software format is 30 years behind the technology curve.

I had a fella on another forum run my numbers and was intrigued enough to investigate purchasing it myself....until I saw it was one step removed from the dot matrix, green screen DOS-based era.

So my advice to QL is:

1. encourage sharing the data output. It’s free marketing for the capabilities of your product and gets people interested in your software
2. If you’re proud of your product (and I think you should be) then take the effort to bring it into the 21st century. Sending it out on CDs isn’t much better that using punch cards. Most folks don’t have the ability to read it because it’s laughably obsolete
 
In my opinion, the reason QL misses out on potential sales isn’t because someone shares the output data. It’s because their software format is 30 years behind the technology curve.

I had a fella on another forum run my numbers and was intrigued enough to investigate purchasing it myself....until I saw it was one step removed from the dot matrix, green screen DOS-based era.

So my advice to QL is:

1. encourage sharing the data output. It’s free marketing for the capabilities of your product and gets people interested in your software
2. If you’re proud of your product (and I think you should be) then take the effort to bring it into the 21st century. Sending it out on CDs isn’t much better that using punch cards. Most folks don’t have the ability to read it because it’s laughably obsolete

I like CD's.. At least it's not on a floppy disk lol
 

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