Quickload

[Uncle Ed]

What an incredibly ignorant statement. It's not GREED, Ed. It's called capitalism. Someone worked to produce that software and they deserve recompense for their efforts. It's not "free stuff". If it was your business and people were buying a service from you, then giving it away free to others and undercutting your margin, you'd probably be screaming like a little baby. Further, your analogy between a QuickLoad output, of which the innate value is the information it contains, and a Word document, which is merely a printed page, is ludicrous. Try selling the code Microsoft uses to actually generate that document and see how that works out for you.

The output of Quickload is not copyrighted and only the software is. And NECO does not own the software, so how many complaints from the German copyright owner have you seen in U.S. forums. Answer "NONE". because the output of Quickload is not copyrighted.

The proof of this is all the output from Quickload posted in reloading forums and no legal action against the websites. And NECO was lying to you and all the reloading websites trying to boost sales and their percentage cut of the sales. So NECO lying was based on greed and not the copyright law.

 

[Ned Ludd]

The output of Quickload is not copyrighted and only the software is. And NECO does not own the software, so how many complaints from the German copyright owner have you seen in U.S. forums. Answer "NONE". because the output of Quickload is not copyrighted.

The proof of this is all the output from Quickload posted in reloading forums and no legal action against the websites. And NECO was lying to you and all the reloading websites trying to boost sales and their percentage cut of the sales. So NECO lying was based on greed and not the copyright law.

Neco wants customers to buy their product. If you wish to classify this as "greed", that's a pretty sad testimonial.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Neco wants customers to buy their product. If you wish to classify this as "greed", that's a pretty sad testimonial.

Quickload is "NOT" a NECO product, they are only selling it in the U.S. for the German company that owns the copyright.

https://www.neconos.com/quickload-f-a-q-s/
Q: I don’t have a disk drive; can i just download QuickLOAD?

A: Because QuickLOAD is developed and published in Germany, it is subject to German law. The German Government has determined that this software program falls under ITAR restrictions. Therefore, it is only available in physical form, no downloads. If someone tells you otherwise, it is NOT QuickLOAD.

 

[Brians356]

It’s sort of like the Napster thing

Napster. There's a name from the past. Doesn't "napster" describe an octogenarian insomniac?
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[GeoffreyKolbe]

A competent developer could come up with a good web version in a few months if they had access to the underlying code/models.

Funny you should mention that

As many of you will know, I have for many years had a number of external ballistics and related apps on my website www.geoffrey-kolbe.com

One missing 'brick in the wall' to complete the suite of programs has always been an internal ballistics simulation, similar to QuickLOAD in that it would be a computer numerical simulation of what happens next when the powder is ignited in a firearms cartridge, but online and free at the point of use.

So.... I spent a few weeks of 'self - isolation' working on putting in that last brick in the wall. See www.bbt.scot and click on the 'ballistics' tab.

I am pretty pleased with it - though it is early days and the model needs some tweaking, that will happen as people use it and report back on how it works. Too, the range of powders is very restricted at the moment. I am working to increase the powder repertoire, but powder companies are very reluctant to release their closed bomb data, which is what the simulator needs in the powder libraries.

Anyhow, it is an (albeit quite restricted at the moment) alternative to QuickLOAD, with the advantage that it will run on any device that has a browser and so it is not OS dependent as QuickLOAD and GRT are. Even people with Apple computers can run it!

Enjoy!

 

[Brians356]

Funny you should mention that

As many of you will know, I have for many years had a number of external ballistics and related apps on my website www.geoffrey-kolbe.com

One missing 'brick in the wall' to complete the suite of programs has always been an internal ballistics simulation, similar to QuickLOAD in that it would be a computer numerical simulation of what happens next when the powder is ignited in a firearms cartridge, but online and free at the point of use.

So.... I spent a few weeks of 'self - isolation' working on putting in that last brick in the wall. See www.bbt.scot and click on the 'ballistics' tab.

I am pretty pleased with it - though it is early days and the model needs some tweaking, that will happen as people use it and report back on how it works. Too, the range of powders is very restricted at the moment. I am working to increase the powder repertoire, but powder companies are very reluctant to release their closed bomb data, which is what the simulator needs in the powder libraries.

Anyhow, it is an (albeit quite restricted at the moment) alternative to QuickLOAD, with the advantage that it will run on any device that has a browser and so it is not OS dependent as QuickLOAD and GRT are. Even people with Apple computers can run it!

Enjoy!

Nice!

How do you define "usable case capacity"? (I'm guessing net capacity with bullet seated.)
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[dcali]

Funny you should mention that

As many of you will know, I have for many years had a number of external ballistics and related apps on my website www.geoffrey-kolbe.com

One missing 'brick in the wall' to complete the suite of programs has always been an internal ballistics simulation, similar to QuickLOAD in that it would be a computer numerical simulation of what happens next when the powder is ignited in a firearms cartridge, but online and free at the point of use.

So.... I spent a few weeks of 'self - isolation' working on putting in that last brick in the wall. See www.bbt.scot and click on the 'ballistics' tab.

I am pretty pleased with it - though it is early days and the model needs some tweaking, that will happen as people use it and report back on how it works. Too, the range of powders is very restricted at the moment. I am working to increase the powder repertoire, but powder companies are very reluctant to release their closed bomb data, which is what the simulator needs in the powder libraries.

Anyhow, it is an (albeit quite restricted at the moment) alternative to QuickLOAD, with the advantage that it will run on any device that has a browser and so it is not OS dependent as QuickLOAD and GRT are. Even people with Apple computers can run it!

Enjoy!

This is fantastic - I've long been a fan of your writing and calculators. I took a stab at an internal ballistics calculator not long ago, but other things distracted me and I didn't get terribly far. What sort of model did you use?

 

[fatelvis]

I consider Quickload the reloading Geek's Ultimate toy! It takes one to know one! lol

 

[Zero333]

Funny you should mention that

As many of you will know, I have for many years had a number of external ballistics and related apps on my website www.geoffrey-kolbe.com

One missing 'brick in the wall' to complete the suite of programs has always been an internal ballistics simulation, similar to QuickLOAD in that it would be a computer numerical simulation of what happens next when the powder is ignited in a firearms cartridge, but online and free at the point of use.

So.... I spent a few weeks of 'self - isolation' working on putting in that last brick in the wall. See www.bbt.scot and click on the 'ballistics' tab.

I am pretty pleased with it - though it is early days and the model needs some tweaking, that will happen as people use it and report back on how it works. Too, the range of powders is very restricted at the moment. I am working to increase the powder repertoire, but powder companies are very reluctant to release their closed bomb data, which is what the simulator needs in the powder libraries.

Anyhow, it is an (albeit quite restricted at the moment) alternative to QuickLOAD, with the advantage that it will run on any device that has a browser and so it is not OS dependent as QuickLOAD and GRT are. Even people with Apple computers can run it!

Enjoy!

Thank you !

I hope you take this very far and give QL a run for their money.

I compared your programs results to Quickload's... and it's close enough for a handloader to work with. Certainly a very good start and more than promising !

I love Quickload, and I would of never got it if others didn't post QL generated data.

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

What sort of model did you use?

Its my own model. It is a full numerical computer simulation. The basis of the model is shown in a little YouTube video I made, which you can find if you look for "BBT P-Max internal ballistics" in YouTube. (seems you are not allowed to post YouTube links here).
I first started playing with it about 20 years ago as a Basic program, but I did not have the computer skills to progress it much further. I did actually run the model on a programmable calculator - just for fun - and though it took 20 minutes to run the program, it did actually work. The some years later I learned to program in Perl and then cgi programming, which is how 'forms' are done on the Internet. Basically, your computer/laptop/phone/device is just acting as what used to be called a 'dumb terminal' many, many years ago. You are able to access a very powerful computer (an Internet server) with the Internet as the interface. On that computer, the program just takes milliseconds to run.

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

Nice!

How do you define "usable case capacity"? (I'm guessing net capacity with bullet seated.)
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Thanks!

Yes, 'usable case capacity' is the capacity in the case behind the loaded bullet. In QL (and GRT), they attempt to have libraries of every known cartridge case and every known bullet, so all you have to do is specify the cartridge, the bullet and the COAL and the program works out the usable case capacity. Well, it is actually very easy to measure usable case capacity, in fact just as easy as measuring case capacity to the case mouth in the usual way. I made a little YouTube video showing how to do this. YouTube links are not allowed on this forum, but you can find it if you search for "usable case capacity, Border Ballistics Technologies"

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

I compared your programs results to Quickload's... and it's close enough for a handloader to work with. Certainly a very good start and more than promising !

Thanks for that.

I think a lot of people get carried away with QL, trying to tweak all the many variables until it reproduces the velocities they measure with their own loads exactly. On the plus side, it is entertaining to play with the millions of variables and see how the program responds. On the minus side, you loose track of what is important in a program like this and what its limits are. You can end up with an artificial artifice of a model which might give the right answer for that particular load in that particular firearm, but will not properly track changes in charge weight or bullet weight. There is the temptation to use QL to do your load development on a keyboard in front of a computer, rather than where it should be done - on a range with your particular firearm.
GRT seems to try to take this to a whole new level and there is an absolute forest of variables to play with. It actually seems to be the intention to use the program to do your load development at home rather than waste money burning powder down at the range - which is actually a rather dangerous approach.
Reloading is actually quite a simple business. You take a cartridge case, put a primer on the bottom, some powder in the middle and a bullet on the top. You put it in your firearm, pull the trigger - bang! Of course, you need the right amount of the right kind of powder so you get the right kind of bang, but this is not an esoteric art. An internal ballistics simulator should be similarly straightforward to use.
The intention of the P-Max simulator is to help the shooter choose a suitable powder for their particular application and give a reasonable idea of how it will perform. It is then up to the shooter to go down to the range and work up the load in the usual way

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

GRT is getting there... slowly, but faster than QL is ever likely to improve.

I have used QL on and off for many years, started playing with GRT this week and its allot better imo

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

I have used QL on and off for many years, started playing with GRT this week and its allot better imo

I would be interested to know why you think GRT is better...?

 

[Uncle Ed]

Dose anyone here do QL work ups for board members?

When you ask for Quickload information 99.9% of the people asking do not provide enough information to even get close to any reloading manual. You need to find out the case capacity of "YOUR" cases, because Quickload defaults to the lowest case capacity of that caliber. Next you need a chronograph and then adjust the burn rate in Quickload until the Quickload velocity matches your chronograph. And when you have done this Quickload will give you a "ballpark" idea of the chamber pressure.

This is why the data varies between reloading manuals, because of the variations in firearms and reloading components. And all Quickload gives you are ballpark guesstimates.

I have Quickload and do not give out any output data because it is nothing more than computer generated guesstimates. And you are better off making workup loads and reading the cases and primers for excess pressure.

Below just using the case capacity of the top Lake City case at 30.6 and the bottom case at 28.0 the chamber pressure in Quickload can vary over 5,000 psi with the same amount of H335 powder. On top of this there are so many variations in .223/5.56 throat length that can effect chamber pressure. Example my Savarge bolt action .223 with a 1in9 twist has a longer throat than my AR15 rifles. And this rifle can be loaded warmer than .223 data for rifles with a shorter throat and a 1in12 or 1in14 twist.

 

[dcali]

GRT looks interesting, but it's got way too much going on and that's going to slow development way down in my opinion. There are very few pieces of data that come out of an internal ballistics calculator that are of much value to a shooter. We don't need charts, pictures of bullets, OBT nodes (which don't even exist in my opinion), and all the other stuff in GRT. Sure, some of it is fun, but it's not important. I would advise the developer to focus on the stuff that can't be done in other programs, and to start with the minimum feature set that will be helpful to people, although it looks like that ship has sailed. The BBT calculator is a little bare bones, but not by much. Fully stocked with the required data, I would pay for it as is. A few bells and whistles would be nice, but not necessary. And, barring any legal issues, this really does make more sense as a web application.

All I want is to put the minimum amount of data in to get an estimate of peak pressure, % of powder burned, load density, barrel time, and muzzle pressure. Some measure of the uncertainty of those would also be welcome.

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

You need to find out the case capacity of "YOUR" cases...

Amen to that. Chamber pressures and velocities are sensitive to the usable case capacity, particularly when the load density gets near 100% (case nearly full). Measuring usable case capacity is easy enough and it is worth making the effort to get sensible results out of any internal ballistics simulator.

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

The BBT calculator is a little bare bones, but not by much.

So.... what variable do you think should be in there that isn't?

 

[GeoffreyKolbe]

All I want is to put the minimum amount of data in to get an estimate of peak pressure, % of powder burned, load density, barrel time, and muzzle pressure. Some measure of the uncertainty of those would also be welcome.

Barrel time is a bit difficult in these simulation models. The reason for that is that the approximation made in these models is that the burning rate is proportional to pressure. Which is a good approximation, but really, burning rate is a function of temperature. The powder column is actually ignited by radiant heat from a stream of incandescent particles that come out of the primer, but that is not the way the deflagration gets started in these models. In these models, some arbitrary chamber pressure is assumed to exist as a starting condition and then things take off from there. So, the time it takes to get to maximum chamber pressure will depend to some extent on what starting pressure is chosen. You will see in all the models that in the pressure vs time curve, the pressure does not start at zero....

As for "measure of uncertainty", how would you gauge that? Do the run again for one grain more and one grain less of powder? One grain more and one grain less of usable case capacity? Both together? That is a bit arbitrary and the uncertainly would grow as the load density approached 100%. By all means, you can do this for yourself. But without some agreed way of how the "measure of uncertainty" is determined, it does not really have much meaning.

 

[dcali]

So.... what variable do you think should be in there that isn't?

The only one that I think would be nice is dimensions for the bullet base so that you can calculate usable case capacity from a measured value of full case capacity. Aside from that, maybe show the barrel time in the output. I assume the curve ends when the barrel does, but just putting the exact number in the upper left would be nice.