I am 74 and have loaded ammo for longer than I can remember. Up till now I never gave much thought to loading for just Hunting. But now due to a disability my Hunting is all but over. I found this sight by searching the webb I started reading all the posts and have realized i didn't know as much as I thought I did about reloading. O.K. here goes Question #1 Runout what exactly is runout and how does one know it's there (stupid Me) up till now runout meant the wife telling me to runout and get a gallon of milk LOL. Question #2 recently bought a Striker like build in 30BR paid more for a set of dies than I ever have in my life. O.K. I ask the question of expanding the necks on 7BR brass to 30BR I got the answer from one on this sight. I tried out of curiosity to expand the neck with the new 30BR dies and they did the job perfectly, so I took the stem out of the die and found the expander button like I have never seen before? It has a long taper out to 30BR. Not knowing what the expander I was told to get looks like could this be the expander I need. I have always been this way if it works why fix it. After resizing several 7BR cases to 30BR and trying them in the pistol they chambered fine. I feel now firing forming is in order to finalize the process? Since visiting this sight I have gained a wealth of information that I never dreamed existed. Thanks so very much for all the past help and future help, bear with some of my stupid questions. I am sure there will be more question in the future. Thanks Lou
Questions Some For Now
- Thread starter ourway77
- Start date
Lou: You have one year on me, and I know what you mean about disabilities. My position shooting ( NRA HiPower, CMP Match's, prone shooting) has been brought to a halt by arthritis, so benchrest ( and off-hand Rifle Silhouette Match's) have been a good alternative. Question 1: Rather than do a repeat, check out the two threads under yours. "Century 21" and "Expander mandrel causing". Both cover a lot of questions about runout. Question 2: Funny you should ask about necking up to 30BR. I've just begun my first adventure with the 30BR and have necked up a trial 20 Lapua 6BR cases ( new). I'm taking it slow, going from 6 to 25 cal, to 6.5mm, to 7mm and finally to 30 cal., using the Sinclair expanding mandrels ( have to outside neck turn anyway, so a good choice for me). Did lose one case when going from 6.5 directly to 30 cal. with a split from the case mouth to the neck/shoulder junction, so am now going to use the 7mm in between. The Redding Type S neck bushing die set did come with the tapered 6mm to 30 cal. expanding button, but have not used it. Seems like you're having great success with the 7BR to 30BR with the tapered expander. As you said, why change? Yes, first time I've paid $210 for a set of two dies. Being in category 111, officially a wildcat, and not as popular as the 6BR, 6ppc, etc. is the reason, I guess.
Runout means radial variation from a true circle. When the term runout is applied to rifle ammunition, this usually refers to total indicated runout, or the sum of all of the component errors - case walls, case neck and bullet axis. Each component’s runout might be due to being off-axis relative to the other components or to being inherently “out of roundâ€.ourway77 said:
Think of rolling the loaded round on a smooth glass surface while watching the tip of the bullet. If there is no visible runout, the tip of the bullet will rotate “smoothlyâ€, or without wobbling. If there is significant runout, the bullet’s tip will wobble as the cartridge is rolled on the smooth surface. In other words, the bullet is not "pointed straight". This could be due to runout of the case body or neck or to off-axis seating of the bullet.
Runout can be measured on a concentricity checker.
This picture shows the Sinclair concentricity checker. The round is rotated on ball bearing supports. Runout is shown on the indicator dial as the case neck, bullet bearing surface or bullet tip contacts the tip of the indicator dial.
The Hornady concentricity gauge adds a device that will push against the round to correct a runout error.
Randy
This is runout;
It can happen at the case neck/shoulder when sizing like this photo, or it can be the bullet seated in the neck crooked.
Simple way to check is just roll the case on a flat surface and watch the tip of the bullet. But if runout is really small you can't see it with the normal eye.
Runout does effect accuracy,,,
It can happen at the case neck/shoulder when sizing like this photo, or it can be the bullet seated in the neck crooked.
Simple way to check is just roll the case on a flat surface and watch the tip of the bullet. But if runout is really small you can't see it with the normal eye.
Runout does effect accuracy,,,
Which in My Opinion is absolutely the worst way to correct runout and concentricity issues.
Runout is an issue with the brass or sizing or seating, it creates something that's bent. Somewhere in the process something isn't doing what it's supposed to do,, beit the press the dies or operator technique.
Now take a tool and bend it back or un-bend it?
That's not solving the problem nor creating anything better than the already bent ammo.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
First off, I'd like to welcome the "youngster" Lou to the blog. Though I'm a tad younger by about 1o years, I've found most of these guys have some sound and knowledagable advice for both young and just a few days olders.
I'd like to throw in my ..02 about Concentricity and concentricty gauges. I really like necchi's drawing which pretty much sums up a more serious issue of concentrcity thats way out of wack. I have a 6.5X55 build in (slow) process because of hunting season repairs by my Gunsmith who was having ean into delivery issues with a new custom reamers that would better allow for depth setting for the Berger VLD's. Seems the company made the reamer and kept sending it to itself over and over again. Anyway, in the meanwhile I bought some brand new brass and dies, inline buller seater, etc, etc. Since I too have had to kiss those hunting days goodbye and shoot strictly paper anymore, the craving for ultimate accuracy sometimes drives me up a tree. SO anyways, since I only use one brand of brass (considered by many and the more serious shooter the best available) I went about my usual "precision shooting" reloading and case prep regiment to fireform the brass when my new rifle was ready. Now I generally always check concentricity on both the Hornady and Sinclair guages, but got sloppy with this new brass and didn't check the new unfired cases for "runout" before proceeding with the deburring, flashhole cleaning and chamferring and "ASSUMED" (boy will that come back and haunt me) how badly can that be on a new unfired piece of brass. Besides, this case prepping was strictly for fireforming wo who cares how nad the "runout" is......boy was that a mistake only to be discovered upon final checking. So I prepped and loaded 35 casings in anticipation of the happy days ahead with the new 6.5. But trying to be diligent, I did my usually last step cheking after having noted that the casing were, for some unbnown reason, harder to remove from the Wilson inline Seater Die. I thought it was just new and unfired brass so I pryed the casings out and thought everything was ok. Then on to the Hornaday Concentrcity Guage and here came ugly reality, about 15 of my newly loaded cartridges wrer as much as .04 - .09 out of concentricty. For the life of me, I thought I'd gotten a bad set oif Redding Dies. SO I sent the dies back to Redding along with four of the out of wack casings that I took apart. Redding called and said their Dies were spot on and my casings were off because they measured very much like Necchi's picture and the necks were toast. SO I took the remaining unfired NEW casings from the box and put them on my Sincalir Concentricty Guage and found at least ten more of the new casings necks way out. After conferring with some experts and "trying to rehabilitate" those casings in mt returned Redding FL Dies, the bottom line was throw away any brass that is more than .005 out and don't even waste your time trying to rehabilitate them. EVen the good companies make a mess some times.
But in the end (and my rifle still isn't done) the last step I do to verify concentricity is using the Hornady Concentrcity Guage to gently move the bullet setting by a mere .01 or .02. That works for me and helps keep those bullets aligned to within .001 - .002 and groups where the holes all touch and keeps a smile on my wrinked smile. Thx for the thoughts guys.
I'd like to throw in my ..02 about Concentricity and concentricty gauges. I really like necchi's drawing which pretty much sums up a more serious issue of concentrcity thats way out of wack. I have a 6.5X55 build in (slow) process because of hunting season repairs by my Gunsmith who was having ean into delivery issues with a new custom reamers that would better allow for depth setting for the Berger VLD's. Seems the company made the reamer and kept sending it to itself over and over again. Anyway, in the meanwhile I bought some brand new brass and dies, inline buller seater, etc, etc. Since I too have had to kiss those hunting days goodbye and shoot strictly paper anymore, the craving for ultimate accuracy sometimes drives me up a tree. SO anyways, since I only use one brand of brass (considered by many and the more serious shooter the best available) I went about my usual "precision shooting" reloading and case prep regiment to fireform the brass when my new rifle was ready. Now I generally always check concentricity on both the Hornady and Sinclair guages, but got sloppy with this new brass and didn't check the new unfired cases for "runout" before proceeding with the deburring, flashhole cleaning and chamferring and "ASSUMED" (boy will that come back and haunt me) how badly can that be on a new unfired piece of brass. Besides, this case prepping was strictly for fireforming wo who cares how nad the "runout" is......boy was that a mistake only to be discovered upon final checking. So I prepped and loaded 35 casings in anticipation of the happy days ahead with the new 6.5. But trying to be diligent, I did my usually last step cheking after having noted that the casing were, for some unbnown reason, harder to remove from the Wilson inline Seater Die. I thought it was just new and unfired brass so I pryed the casings out and thought everything was ok. Then on to the Hornaday Concentrcity Guage and here came ugly reality, about 15 of my newly loaded cartridges wrer as much as .04 - .09 out of concentricty. For the life of me, I thought I'd gotten a bad set oif Redding Dies. SO I sent the dies back to Redding along with four of the out of wack casings that I took apart. Redding called and said their Dies were spot on and my casings were off because they measured very much like Necchi's picture and the necks were toast. SO I took the remaining unfired NEW casings from the box and put them on my Sincalir Concentricty Guage and found at least ten more of the new casings necks way out. After conferring with some experts and "trying to rehabilitate" those casings in mt returned Redding FL Dies, the bottom line was throw away any brass that is more than .005 out and don't even waste your time trying to rehabilitate them. EVen the good companies make a mess some times.
But in the end (and my rifle still isn't done) the last step I do to verify concentricity is using the Hornady Concentrcity Guage to gently move the bullet setting by a mere .01 or .02. That works for me and helps keep those bullets aligned to within .001 - .002 and groups where the holes all touch and keeps a smile on my wrinked smile. Thx for the thoughts guys.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
I wasted my $ and bought a Hornaday concentricity tool, I agree with necchi 100% on this, your not really fixing anything, just masking a deeper problem that needs fixed! then you wouldn't need a tool for fixing runout.necchi said:
IMO runout is usually caused by just a few things
#1 defective brass,.....fix,.. discard it or mark it and use for foulers.
#2 Dies that size the necks way to far then pulled back with a expander ball
Fix,...Buy bushing dies,...custom chambers
#3 expanding cases for whatever reason with no or not enough lube on the inside of neck,.....fix Lube the inside of neck,..expand in steps
#4 seating dies that don't line bullet up with case mouth,...fix Inline seating dies, custom ones preferred.
There are other things that cause runout but these are the usual culprits, if you take your time and properly lube your cases and be consistent with it, use quality tools and if you don't have a custom tight chamber then size in small steps if you have bushing dies then don't size more then .002-.003 at a time, also if your having trouble with runout rotate 180* half way through the sizing stroke and again when seating if your not using a inline seating die, there are other tips and tricks but these will usually get you satisfactory results or at least they do for me. I learned these things by trial and error experimenting and by other forum members here on 6br
I hope this helps some.Wayne.
fdshuster said:
The K&M 6mm -.30 Special Expand Mandrel does it all in just one pass: http://www.kmshooting.com/catalog/case-neck-expanding-tools/special-6mm-.30-expand-mandrels_for-expand-iron-assembly.html
Rotating the neck 120 degrees, on three passes, ensures nice round necks. Use plenty of lube.
Outdoorsman: The Redding 6mm to 30 cal. tapered expander claims to also expand in one step. Was really disappointd when the entire neck peeled back like a flower petal. I was taking it real slow & using plenty of Imperial die wax on both the neck interior & the tapered expander. Already have all the expander mandrels to fit my Sinclair die body, sold all my K&M equipment, so to go to the K&M expander would be an added cost for the expander die body also. I really don't mind taking it slow, one caliber at a time. Thought the problem was the sudden big "jump" from .264" to 308, so with the next batch of 20 will try the 7mm/.284" in between. Thanks for the tip of rotating the case 120 degrees. I should have thought to include that.
I had a long type written (two finger) thank you to all. It was quite lengthly took some time and like everything else with these dang computers I lost the reply. So I will just say again Thank You all for all the good information. (FD Shuster) Sometime ago I bought a new Hornady case trimmer (stole it) I already had a Lyman case trimmer but when I found out the only shellholders that will work are Hornady? I put it aside. Now I can get the gauge if I elect too. (Necchi) very good illuatration on run out I always say one picture worth 1000 words, or did confusious say it? No Matter. (Bozo699) to go out and replace 30 sets of dies that I have Redding and RCBS would take me too the poor house and at this stage of the game ( I don't target shoot in compitition) I guess I could trade off the dies I have for the few of the target rifles I have for bushing dies? (B72) I am in the same boat if I sit down I better have some one there to help me up. (Shyloco) Thanks youngster LOL. If I missed anyone I Thank You also for all the good information The dies for the 30BR I bought already had this sort of expander in them already and I have used the die to expand 50 cases from 7BR to 30BR and not a wrinkled case so if it ain't broke why fix it?. The only other cases I do are to take 6BR and neck it down to 22BR Who was it that said you can't teach an old dog new tricks LOL Lou
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Lou,ourway77 said:
I wasn't suggesting you or anybody replace all there dies, just said a large culprit to runout is the standard dies no matter the brand, they size the necks down to much then expand them back to size with the expander ball, too much pushing and pulling for good concentricity. I own a lot of the standard dies, I have been doing one of two things depending on what the firearm is used for, precision and long range rifles I have been buying bushing dies or custom f/l standard or bushing dies. For not so precise rifles I have been taking the standard dies to a machinist/gunsmith friend of mine and having him hone the necks to the proper dimensions for my rifles .
Wayne.
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