Questions on precision AR 15 reloading

[Pres100]

Both of my service rifles (1:8 twist) and my match rifle are more accurate with 52 gr HPBT than with the 77s and 80s. My go to short line ammo is 52 gr unless the wind is howling. I think you should definitely try them

 

[idahoorion]

Pres 100 thanks for that I will for sure give them a try.

Idahoorion

 

[Road_Clam]

I have 2 different AR uppers, a standard 16" HB Bushmaster , and a 24" Bushmaster Varmint. The 24" upper using my 52gr SMK handloads can yield about .8 MOA at 100 yds. However attempting to reach out to 600 yds I'm using 69gr SMK's and I'm averaging about 2.5 MOA . My 16" upper I'm at about 1.5 MOA at 100 yds with 52gr SMK's . The problem with my 16" upper is the lack of consistiency. I've shot a sweet .88 MOA then tried the same load a few months later and it's 1.75 moa so I'm still searching for consistent MOA accuracy from my 16" . I don't think I can get there, but it's good learning experience in the process.

 

[ridgeway]

I'm shooting consistent 3/4 MOA out of mine and thinking about swapping out the milspec upper for a side charger billet that is much more rigid. In my application, it should work well since my barrel is a straight 1.06" to the rifle length gas block and .920 to 18-3/4" muzzle. Lotta barrel hanging off a paper thin upper, IMO. Most of the time, 3 shots looks nice 1/2 MOA or better and the other two are out to catch the fly ball, lol.

 

[DocBII]

idahoorion,

Tried several sets of dies before trying the Dillon dies, which worked the best. Redding type S FL dies worked well, too, but not as much bump to the shoulder. An AR which shoots well will benefit from all the little things done to make the brass consistent. I shoot to 1k with my RR AR.

HTH,
DocB

 

[Brians356]

bigedp51, T-Rex, Oif/oef,
thanks for that input, you told me more about the chamber differences than I knew before posting lots of food for thought.

Dept. of Redundancy Dept. here, but a few True Facts to remember from "Andrew" over at LuckyGunner.com:

* The exterior (physical) dimensions of .223 and 5.56 ammunition are effectively identical.
* 5.56 ammunition may be loaded to higher pressures than .223 ammunition.
* 5.56mm chambers are dimensionally larger in certain critical areas than .223 chambers.
* Given the same ammunition, 5.56 chambers will have lower pressures than .223 chambers.

 

[bigedp51]

bigedp51, T-Rex, Oif/oef,
thanks for that input, you told me more about the chamber differences than I knew before posting lots of food for thought.

Dept. of Redundancy Dept. here, but a few True Facts to remember from "Andrew" over at LuckyGunner.com:

* The exterior (physical) dimensions of .223 and 5.56 ammunition are effectively identical.
* 5.56 ammunition may be loaded to higher pressures than .223 ammunition.
* 5.56mm chambers are dimensionally larger in certain critical areas than .223 chambers.
* Given the same ammunition, 5.56 chambers will have lower pressures than .223 chambers.

The .223 and 5.56 are loaded to the same identical chamber pressure of 52,000 cup, 55,000 psi or European CIP of 62,000 psi take at the case mouth.

The only difference that matters is the throat design on "some" .223 rifles with 1 in 14 and 1 in 12 twist rates. Also the SAAMI interchangeability warning for the .223/5.56 did not come out until 1979 when the military M885 was introduced along with M16 rifle with longer throats.

The throat on my Savage .223 bolt action with a 1 in 9 twist is longer than my AR15 rifles are. Many .223 chambers today are big enough for any .223/5.56 cartridge plus the company lawyer. (see link below)

HOLLIGER ON .223/5.56 CHAMBERS
http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm

And the chart below from "The Lucky Gunner" shows the far left green bar factory loaded .223 ammunition reading below the max chamber pressure of 55,000 psi at approximately 49,000 psi. And the far right blue bar for military 5.56 ammunition reading lower than 55,000 psi. And you wonder why reloading data varies so much when a given firearm is used for testing with a strain gauge used to measure the pressure.

Bottom line brians356 when using a strain gauge to measure chamber pressure a cartridge of a known pressure must be used to calibrate the readings. And the above readings seem to be low and show only 4,000 psi difference in the "rated" pressure when mixing rifles and ammo.

And I have fired both M193 and M885 ammunition out of my .223 bolt action rifle with lower pressure signs than from my AR15 rifles. So nothing is written in stone.

 

[waldo1979]

I've been shooting my AR for 6 months in our local benchrest match along side several other ARs in the hunter class. (I'm waiting on Benchmark to finish my R700). One of the guys consistency wins using a DPMS 1:9 20" .920 gas block using Hornady 75gr HPBT in Lake city brass, reloaded-15 and CCI BR4 primers. He's using RCBS competition dies with a polished full length expander ball. He consistently holds sub- 1/2MOA and sees many 1/4 MOA groups. He shoots off a Cadwell BR rest and uses an EGW bag rider. He tried a rediculous number of bullets, powders and brass to come up with the load he has now.

I think the trick is to find out what distance you want to shoot and use the slowest stable twist for that distances. 300yards = 69-75gr 1:9. 100 yards = 1:12 52gr. >400yards 1:8 or 1:7.

I've been working with a RRA w/ a 24" Kreiger 1:7.7 CLE chambered. On a good day I can hold a consistent 3/4 MOA but I definitely need to work my loads more. The load development process is arduous, laborious and most of the time I'm not motivated enough to do it.

A couple early matches were won by a fella with a Les Bear 20" 1:9 .920 gas block but he has been struggling lately.

 

[hogan]

Some ideas:


Rem 7-1/2 primers are Benchrest quality, but have hard enough cups so they are THE Favored service rifle match quality primer. Matters a bunch IF you are loading from magazine rather than singly. Might also matter if you are using a more strike sensitive cup primer and single loading IF your brass is minimally sized. Worth risking a slamfire? Only takes 1...


Small base dies? Owned a couple sets. Redding S FL die is a body die when remove the decap stem assy. Has always worked fine w/LC & WCC brass I have bought once-fired.


Know your chamber dimensions? Not your reamer blueprint. Size your brass .004" under fired oal dimension. Verify case dimension BEFORE firing and AFTER. Wilson Case Gauge or RCBS Precision Mic. Might size to .003" if confident. Talking for magazine ammo feed. Single loading up to you, but not like we're concerned with Brass Longevity here; want most dependable function.

Try measuring virgin case or factory ammo. Then see fired dimension. Can be Big Variance.

Using a VLD chamfer?

Carbide Primer Pocket reamer in drill makes quick work of cleaning up military ofb after primer crimp is removed.
Easy to broach the flash hole at this time also, then you have eliminated 2 variables.

Trim after sizing. Even virgin cases can benefit from FL sizing, if only to restore neck diameter. Carbide ball is smoother in terms of drag. If nothing else, polish your sizing ball w/crocus paper or turn it a thousandth under. If tapered ball is available, might be worth it. Set lock screw on decap rod when deprime pin is through flash hole to center your tool.

Got Redding Comp shellholder kit to work with? Might be worth considering...


Really want benchrest precision? Try arbor dies...

Check your magazine oal and use all the length you have for bullet seating. A thousandth or two clearance is plenty. Use stripper clip to load your mags.

Lots of good info on Glen Zediker's site and in his books. Don't skimp on bullets, Nosler BTHP comps are excellent and affordable; Hornady likewise. Maybe somebody somewhere raves about PRVI 75gr, but other than for practice... Why practice with lesser quality bullets if want to do your best?

Forster Benchrest die for seating is excellent! Mark your base index with fingernail polish, or better, loctite it... Can afford to buy additional top spindle and seating stem for each other bullet you load, lock them down. Use die body and threaded base with all your locked seater heads.



Ridgeway was asking about billet and thicker-walled upper receivers. Not a big deal... Boltcarrier group and barrel extension does ALL the work. Short oal chamber works well in AR rifles, IF your loading parameters cater to it. Still have to size .003-.004" under fired case dimension, but such is for chambering reliability from magazines. Less brass stretch is always better than more...


Tactical Shooter magazine, long defunct, had article from service rifle shooter who used Dillon 550b to load match quality ammunition for him and daughter every year. Loading 6k rds every year, he learned to tweak the Dillon machine for consistency. I size on single stage press with S FL die and then prime with Dillon from there.

Size your brass for tightest chamber dimension you have, all the other rifles will digest ammo just fine. Another reason to have a Chamber Gauge or Precision Mic, if loading for more than one rifle...

 

[jlow]

I've had success loading up sub-MOA (1/2 MOA) rounds with Nosler 77 CC - that is with a 5 round group. The problem I see with ARs is their relatively thin barrel when compared to something like a medium/heavy Palma .308 barrel. The down sidewith the thin barrel (and I am not talking about the pencil barrel but DCM contour) is the accuracy nodes are narrow (0.2-3 grains) and seating depth are touchy.

 

[chkunz]

I've had success loading up sub-MOA (1/2 MOA) rounds with Nosler 77 CC - that is with a 5 round group. The problem I see with ARs is their relatively thin barrel when compared to something like a medium/heavy Palma .308 barrel. The down sidewith the thin barrel (and I am not talking about the pencil barrel but DCM contour) is the accuracy nodes are narrow (0.2-3 grains) and seating depth are touchy.

Your choice of barrels for the AR is unlimited and your are not restricted to "thin" barrels unless there is something in your application that I do not understand. Also if you multiply your five shot groups by about 1.5 you will get an estimate of the size of the group you will get if you keep shooting more shots, say twenty or more. Best regards.

 

[jlow]

I've had success loading up sub-MOA (1/2 MOA) rounds with Nosler 77 CC - that is with a 5 round group. The problem I see with ARs is their relatively thin barrel when compared to something like a medium/heavy Palma .308 barrel. The down sidewith the thin barrel (and I am not talking about the pencil barrel but DCM contour) is the accuracy nodes are narrow (0.2-3 grains) and seating depth are touchy.

Your choice of barrels for the AR is unlimited and your are not restricted to "thin" barrels unless there is something in your application that I do not understand. Also if you multiply your five shot groups by about 1.5 you will get an estimate of the size of the group you will get if you keep shooting more shots, say twenty or more. Best regards.

That's obviously true but a really heavy barrel AR is not exactly functional... I generally don't buy or use non-functional guns.

Not sure why you are having a problem understanding the concept that AR barrels are in general thinner than a .308 barrel....

 

[chkunz]

I've had success loading up sub-MOA (1/2 MOA) rounds with Nosler 77 CC - that is with a 5 round group. The problem I see with ARs is their relatively thin barrel when compared to something like a medium/heavy Palma .308 barrel. The down sidewith the thin barrel (and I am not talking about the pencil barrel but DCM contour) is the accuracy nodes are narrow (0.2-3 grains) and seating depth are touchy.

Your choice of barrels for the AR is unlimited and your are not restricted to "thin" barrels unless there is something in your application that I do not understand. Also if you multiply your five shot groups by about 1.5 you will get an estimate of the size of the group you will get if you keep shooting more shots, say twenty or more. Best regards.

That's obviously true but a really heavy barrel AR is not exactly functional... I generally don't buy or use non-functional guns.

Not sure why you are having a problem understanding the concept that AR barrels are in general thinner than a .308 barrel....

I thought I may have some information or experience that could help with your questions. Obviously I do not.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Youre the man to me T-Rex. I got a CLE upper that has a huuge barrel on it. Just like all the rifles youre familiar with. So big you gotta gut out the handguards!

 

[chkunz]

Youre the man to me T-Rex. I got a CLE upper that has a huuge barrel on it. Just like all the rifles youre familiar with. So big you gotta gut out the handguards!

The great thing about the AR is it is like Mr. Potatohead, it is modular and you can build almost any configuration you want and they are so easy to get to shoot well, just buy quality parts and put them together, no real gunsmithing. Take care.

 

[Arbrn Ranger]

Hi, long time reloader, but newbie AR reloader, my rifle is 24' fat barrel stag 5.56, likes 75hpbt best of the factory loads I've tried
8 twist, hornady match and Black hills reman are quite good. So I am going to start with 75 hornady hpbt and some 75 amax. I also have 52gr sierra match kings.

I am wondering about dies. will I need small base?

I am thinking forster as I can send them in and have the neck custom sized if needed. all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length.

this will be mag fed, I want it to step out but accuracy trumps speed. must have reliable function, uses of the rifle include but are not limited to, rodent type varmints, look out rockchucks....coyote hunting. and some tactical range work when I feel like a break from the 6 slr.

is the 223 finicky about neck tension?

will be shortening the barrel to 20" and adding a can when its form 4 jail term is up.

any other helpful things you can add are appreciated.

Idahoorion

 

[Arbrn Ranger]

Hi, long time reloader, but newbie AR reloader, my rifle is 24' fat barrel stag 5.56, likes 75hpbt best of the factory loads I've tried
8 twist, hornady match and Black hills reman are quite good. So I am going to start with 75 hornady hpbt and some 75 amax. I also have 52gr sierra match kings.

I am wondering about dies. will I need small base?

I am thinking forster as I can send them in and have the neck custom sized if needed. all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length.

this will be mag fed, I want it to step out but accuracy trumps speed. must have reliable function, uses of the rifle include but are not limited to, rodent type varmints, look out rockchucks....coyote hunting. and some tactical range work when I feel like a break from the 6 slr.

is the 223 finicky about neck tension?

will be shortening the barrel to 20" and adding a can when its form 4 jail term is up.

any other helpful things you can add are appreciated.

Idahoorion

Well, my Bushmaster Predator is shooting 1/4 MOA, with Blackhills 77grain, 5.56, at 100 yards, with a Nikon p-223 3×9 scope.

 

[Arbrn Ranger]

Well, my Bushmaster Predator is shooting 1/4 MOA, with Blackhills 77grain, 5.56, at 100 yards, with a Nikon p-223 3×9 scope.

I would like to start reloading was thinking about a Lee Turrent press those 77 grain that black hills uses are the Sierra matchking ballistic tips going to give it a try, my bushy loves them. I purchased over a dozen different bullet types IMI Hornady Federal American Eagle Winchester in different grains but those black hills 77 boat tails I tell you what it lays them on top of each other

 

[mac86951]

Hi, long time reloader, but newbie AR reloader, my rifle is 24' fat barrel stag 5.56, likes 75hpbt best of the factory loads I've tried
8 twist, hornady match and Black hills reman are quite good. So I am going to start with 75 hornady hpbt and some 75 amax. I also have 52gr sierra match kings.

I am wondering about dies. will I need small base?

I am thinking forster as I can send them in and have the neck custom sized if needed. all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length.

this will be mag fed, I want it to step out but accuracy trumps speed. must have reliable function, uses of the rifle include but are not limited to, rodent type varmints, look out rockchucks....coyote hunting. and some tactical range work when I feel like a break from the 6 slr.

is the 223 finicky about neck tension?

will be shortening the barrel to 20" and adding a can when its form 4 jail term is up.

any other helpful things you can add are appreciated.

Idahoorion

Wow, lots of feed back and lots of opinions.

First off:. Yes Glen's AR book is excellent; as us Feamster's Black rifle book. Good info; but there isn't a real do one thing secret. In my experience; here's what I've learned.

1. Brass; I dont use small base dies. I have and use rcbs, Forster, Redding. Rcbs cleans up the range pick-up and loads my 5.56 fodder. Forster does just fine on my sub-moa mag length stuff; Redding with bushing for my single feed long range loads. The key to all of this is the brass I'm using. Small base dies are to provide more clearance for function and feeding. You may/may not need them depending on your chamber. My experience; stag 5.56 chamber is near 5.56 match and not sloppy.
I do FL size and bump shoulder on all loads. Shoulder bump 0.003-0.004. long range loads are annealed often, for consistency; but probably this is a make me feel better step more than it helps me.
Neck tension / crimp. Range brass runs 0.002-0.004 neck tension; doesn't need a crimp and works just fine. Long range brass selected for consistent neck tension / weight.

2. Barrel:. A 24" 1-8 is an excellent use of just about everything 50gr up. You mention mag feeding; typically it's 2.255-2.265 depending on your mag. Don't worry about seating depth experiments per bolt gun methods; seat for function. The 5.56 chamber and Wylde Chambers often have a gargantuan jump to lands. IME the classic ogive bullets are less picky about this. Try different manf. Bullets to see what performs best.
3. Gas system: it's there for function, often times it's over gassed and tries to eject brass too early. NOT a major accuracy effector. It is a pain and eats your brass early though. If you want to save your brass watch for the standard pressure signs AND case head swipe. Case head swipe can be reduced by many things if needed. Tune for reliable function.

4. Ok last but not least is powder. I'll defeer to your reloading methods here. 223 is a small case; +/- 0.1gr can and does make a difference at 600+ yards. Or; a progressive and ball powder can be consistent enough for 600y national match ammo. Find the powder that lets you be as OCD as you're comfortable with. I have 5 different types of powder that work well for me; and 2 primers...

Can an AR be accurate? Yes if sub-moa is your goal. More moving parts; more care on the mechanical side and cleaning. Will it shoot a group in the 0s? Ok, maybe? Once? When noone is looking for sure. In summary; FL size your brass. Bump shoulders (I measure with rcbs prec. Mic). Find a bullet /powder / primer combo that shows promise, and work up from there for function.

Some loads I've worked up to for reference (work up to all loads).
Brass:. Winchester
Sierra 77; 22.1 AR comp; fed 205M; 2.260

Brass: range pick-up
Hornady 55sp; 25.5 WC846; cci400; 2.220

Brass LC14
Berger 70vld; 25.0 n140; fed205m; 2.255

-Mac

 

[riflewoman]

Holy resurrected thread, Batman!