Questions on precision AR 15 reloading

[idahoorion]

Hi, long time reloader, but newbie AR reloader, my rifle is 24' fat barrel stag 5.56, likes 75hpbt best of the factory loads I've tried
8 twist, hornady match and Black hills reman are quite good. So I am going to start with 75 hornady hpbt and some 75 amax. I also have 52gr sierra match kings.

I am wondering about dies. will I need small base?

I am thinking forster as I can send them in and have the neck custom sized if needed. all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length.

this will be mag fed, I want it to step out but accuracy trumps speed. must have reliable function, uses of the rifle include but are not limited to, rodent type varmints, look out rockchucks....coyote hunting. and some tactical range work when I feel like a break from the 6 slr.

is the 223 finicky about neck tension?

will be shortening the barrel to 20" and adding a can when its form 4 jail term is up.

any other helpful things you can add are appreciated.

Idahoorion

 

[ridgeway]

I'm not sure you can use precision and AR together, LOL.

I've been chasing down a load for my precision built AR and seem to be non existent. I'm using regular Redding 223 dies for a 223 Wylde chamber. Throwing all changes on a lab scale and basically applying all BR style of loading to the AR. Once you pick up a fired case, I'm wondering why I'm even bothering, LOL.

Seems like all the super shooing AR's(1/4-1/2 MOA) are built off of stout billet uppers that are thick walled compared to the paper thin milspec stuff. I dunno...there are way more AR guys on here that can give you more info than me.

 

[bigedp51]

I use small base dies when I buy once fired Lake city brass and size them the first time, thereafter I use standard full length resizing dies.

A standard chambered AR15 rifle has a chamber .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI .223 chamber. Therefore if you use a standard SAAMI .223 full length resizing die it should be more than good enough for your AR15 with its fatter chamber. "BUT" we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and nothing is written in stone, nor is all brass the same hardness. So having a small base die never hurts if you need to return the brass to minimum dimensions if buying once fired, range pickup brass or having any extraction problems.

As always you will need to work up "YOUR" loads to find your rifles best accuracy

Below some good info on the .223/5.56, twist, bullet weights and loads.

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

 

[chkunz]

Hi, long time reloader, but newbie AR reloader, my rifle is 24' fat barrel stag 5.56, likes 75hpbt best of the factory loads I've tried
8 twist, hornady match and Black hills reman are quite good. So I am going to start with 75 hornady hpbt and some 75 amax. I also have 52gr sierra match kings.

I am wondering about dies. will I need small base?

I am thinking forster as I can send them in and have the neck custom sized if needed. all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length.

this will be mag fed, I want it to step out but accuracy trumps speed. must have reliable function, uses of the rifle include but are not limited to, rodent type varmints, look out rockchucks....coyote hunting. and some tactical range work when I feel like a break from the 6 slr.

is the 223 finicky about neck tension?

will be shortening the barrel to 20" and adding a can when its form 4 jail term is up.

any other helpful things you can add are appreciated.

Idahoorion

Wooah big fella, you need a lot of help here. The AR is a military style semi auto with a floating firing pin. This is not a bench rest gun and it is unrealistic to expect bench rest accuracy. For shooting NRA high power rifle competition out to 600 yards the accuracy is excellent. Full length size the brass with small base dies, bump the sholders 0.003 and do not mess with the necks, you need a minimum of 0.003 neck tension. The 1 in 8 is good for the 75/77/80 grain match bullets but not the 52 SMK. You did not say what chamber, hopefully it is the Wylde chamber. Spend some time with Glen Zedikers books and call me in the morning.

 

[chkunz]

I'm not sure you can use precision and AR together, LOL.

I've been chasing down a load for my precision built AR and seem to be non existent. I'm using regular Redding 223 dies for a 223 Wylde chamber. Throwing all changes on a lab scale and basically applying all BR style of loading to the AR. Once you pick up a fired case, I'm wondering why I'm even bothering, LOL.

Seems like all the super shooing AR's(1/4-1/2 MOA) are built off of stout billet uppers that are thick walled compared to the paper thin milspec stuff. I dunno...there are way more AR guys on here that can give you more info than me.

Again, the AR is a semi auto military style action and not a bench rest gun. It is very accurate and easy to shoot well for this type of firearm. But you have to be consistent with the functioning requirements and then be consistent with twist, chamber, etc. Lab scales are not necessary for weighing powder. "stout billet uppers that are thick walled compared to the paper thin milspec stuff" is not important for this gun. There is more but this will get the discussion going in the right direction.

 

[chkunz]

I use small base dies when I buy once fired Lake city brass and size them the first time, thereafter I use standard full length resizing dies.

A standard chambered AR15 rifle has a chamber .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI .223 chamber. Therefore if you use a standard SAAMI .223 full length resizing die it should be more than good enough for your AR15 with its fatter chamber. "BUT" we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and nothing is written in stone, nor is all brass the same hardness. So having a small base die never hurts if you need to return the brass to minimum dimensions if buying once fired, range pickup brass or having any extraction problems.

As always you will need to work up "YOUR" loads to find your rifles best accuracy

Below some good info on the .223/5.56, twist, bullet weights and loads.

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

For the semi auto military style action I recommend that you full length size with small base dies every time. Why not?

 

[chkunz]

all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length. No, look up Magazine length in a good reloading manual like the Sierra and use that for your reference.

 

[ridgeway]

I understand it's far from a BR rig, but heavy barreled, precision chambered AR should at least consistently run 1/2 MOA or better at 100 yards for 5 shots. 1-2 for milspec is doing good, lol.

So you are saying a paper thin milspec upper means nothing with a 1.06" straight taper to a rifle length gas block and .920 to 18-3/4" hanging off it? A rigid heavy walled upper almost has to help with accuracy and consistency? I'm not saying it will help with a m4 weight barrel, but has to help some with heavy barrels? Same concept works in BR and machining, rigidity.

I dunno...maybe trying to polish a turd or something trying to get an AR to run 1/4 MOA, LOL.

 

[chkunz]

Hi, long time reloader, but newbie AR reloader, my rifle is 24' fat barrel stag 5.56, likes 75hpbt best of the factory loads I've tried
8 twist, hornady match and Black hills reman are quite good. So I am going to start with 75 hornady hpbt and some 75 amax. I also have 52gr sierra match kings.

I am wondering about dies. will I need small base?

I am thinking forster as I can send them in and have the neck custom sized if needed. all the different ammo I've tried seems to be loaded to mag length. so for a start I would just copy the hornady match for length.

this will be mag fed, I want it to step out but accuracy trumps speed. must have reliable function, uses of the rifle include but are not limited to, rodent type varmints, look out rockchucks....coyote hunting. and some tactical range work when I feel like a break from the 6 slr.

is the 223 finicky about neck tension?

will be shortening the barrel to 20" and adding a can when its form 4 jail term is up.

any other helpful things you can add are appreciated.

Idahoorion

My Son and I did some research on load development for the AR for NRA XTC application. It was mostly for a 26 inch match barrel but we also included some testing for a 20 inch barrel. if you would like a copy of the report send me an email and I will send you a copy but I would recommend that first you spend some time with Glen Zediker 's books.

 

[chkunz]

I understand it's far from a BR rig, but heavy barreled, precision chambered AR should at least consistently run 1/2 MOA or better at 100 yards for 5 shots. 1-2 for milspec is doing good, lol.

So you are saying a paper thin milspec upper means nothing with a 1.06" straight taper to a rifle length gas block and .920 to 18-3/4" hanging off it? A rigid heavy walled upper almost has to help with accuracy and consistency? I'm not saying it will help with a m4 weight barrel, but has to help some with heavy barrels? Same concept works in BR and machining, rigidity.

I dunno...maybe trying to polish a turd or something trying to get an AR to run 1/4 MOA, LOL.

Your are asking the right questions. But, trying to get a semi auto military style action to get 1/4 MOA is not realistic. Here is the dirty little secret. No one tells you what they get with and average of three ten shot groups, they shoot three five shot groups or even three shot groups and throw out the bad shots or even the bad groups until they get what they expected. You will get no respect here or most places with the truth on accuracy.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I use small base dies when I buy once fired Lake city brass and size them the first time, thereafter I use standard full length resizing dies.

A standard chambered AR15 rifle has a chamber .002 larger in diameter than a standard SAAMI .223 chamber. Therefore if you use a standard SAAMI .223 full length resizing die it should be more than good enough for your AR15 with its fatter chamber. "BUT" we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and nothing is written in stone, nor is all brass the same hardness. So having a small base die never hurts if you need to return the brass to minimum dimensions if buying once fired, range pickup brass or having any extraction problems.

As always you will need to work up "YOUR" loads to find your rifles best accuracy

Below some good info on the .223/5.56, twist, bullet weights and loads.

223 Rem + 223 AI Cartridge Guide
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/223rem/

No graphics? What's up Ed It's not the same

 

[ridgeway]

I understand it's far from a BR rig, but heavy barreled, precision chambered AR should at least consistently run 1/2 MOA or better at 100 yards for 5 shots. 1-2 for milspec is doing good, lol.

So you are saying a paper thin milspec upper means nothing with a 1.06" straight taper to a rifle length gas block and .920 to 18-3/4" hanging off it? A rigid heavy walled upper almost has to help with accuracy and consistency? I'm not saying it will help with a m4 weight barrel, but has to help some with heavy barrels? Same concept works in BR and machining, rigidity.

I dunno...maybe trying to polish a turd or something trying to get an AR to run 1/4 MOA, LOL.

Your are asking the right questions. But, trying to get a semi auto military style action to get 1/4 MOA is not realistic. Here is the dirty little secret. No one tells you what they get with and average of three ten shot groups, they shoot three five shot groups or even three shot groups and throw out the bad shots or even the bad groups until they get what they expected. You will get no respect here or most places with the truth on accuracy.

Ha-ha...your right. I've shot several 1/4 MOA 3 shot load testing groups, but 4 and 5 pimple that out to 1 MOA...and consistently, LOL. I can test 5 different powder charges...all prints the same, lol. Like I said, trying to polish a turd.

 

[OIF/OEF]

I use the small base dies every time...I'm already there so why not. My small base AR dies always came in a black box not sure if that's still the case though. Good luck in your quest for accuracy. Do it as a single shot and load the bullets out further to see if it get better or worse Sir.

Very Respectfully

 

[bigedp51]

For the semi auto military style action I recommend that you full length size with small base dies every time. Why not?

You ask "why not" and my reply is this depends on your chamber, your dies and your brass hardness.

The military 5.56 chamber is already .002 larger in diameter than a standard .223 SAAMI chamber. Therefore the vast majority of AR15 rifles can use a standard .223 resizing die without any problems. "BUT" this is where "we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world" comes into play and no two chambers and dies are the same.

You also recommended reading Glen Zediker 's books and I have Mr. Zediker books and he recommends measuring your cases before firing, after firing and after sizing when deciding on a die type. He also states that standard Redding dies are closer to minimum SAAMI dimensions and should work just fine.

My RCBS .223/5.56 small base die only sizes the base .0005 smaller in diameter than my standard RCBS full length die. I also have a Lee .223 standard full length die that sizes the base of the case .001 smaller than my small base RCBS or Redding small base body die. And if this Lee die is adjusted as per the instructions and making hard contact with the shell holder I would end up with .009 shoulder bump.

So again you ask why not use a small base die and my answer because it may be over kill and shorten your case life. And I have seven .223/5.56 dies and none of then are the same size. And I have never had a failure to eject on any of my semi-autos.

T-REX or "king of the tyrant lizards" needs to understand that he is not the only one who knows how to reload and you should re-read Glen Zediker 's books.

Now look at my signature block below and tell me everyone should use small base dies. :

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I got a CLE that shoots pretty good. Wish i could do it justice. Their chamber is perfect on the freebore for mag length stuff. Shoots circles around my wylde chambered stuff.

 

[idahoorion]

bigedp51, T-Rex, Oif/oef,

thanks for that input, you told me more about the chamber differences than I knew before posting lots of food for thought.

yes I figued the 52 gr. may be a bit short but thought I would try em. likely the 69 to 77 gr is where we will stay for most shooting.

Perhaps, I misjudged the forum on "precision shooting" words. I belong to a Idaho Precision rifle shooters club. it is PRS type events, this weekend we have a shoot with lots of positional shooting and very little prone or bipod. with the exception of one set of targets a 800 yards, all the rest are 650 and under. so the 223 should work (on paper) for that. so consistant 1/2" or better capability should do it with good loading techiques to keep the vertical minimal to 6-800.

I will be pm img for that reference on the 20" barrel workup.

keep those thoughts coming. I have some new hornady to shoot this am and will see what the before and after case measurements are.

thanks
Idahoorion

 

[chkunz]

The AR is very accurate for a semi auto and fun to shoot. The accuracy loads listed in the Sierra manual are a good place to start. You will enjoy finding a good load and shooting the gun. Good luck.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Don't forget that if you are mag feeding, you will probably have to apply a slight crimp to the bullet in order to keep the bullet seating depth consistent. Sometimes the bullets get banged around pretty good when feeding into the chamber. Good neck tension might be enough though. Just make sure to measure a handful of rounds rounds from base to ogive, chamber them a couple times from the magazine with a hard release of the charging handle, then re-measure to make sure they are the same.

On another note, being a handloader for an AR can be a real pain in the butt to recover brass if you don't have a good brass catcher. Thos Caldwell bags are junk after the get some weight in them. Here is a link to the best brass cather I have ever used. I have two of them. They are odd looking and bulky, but don't add a lot of extra weight. Fully adjustable and extremely durable. Any extra weight they do add is well worth the convenience and reliability they provide.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-S-H-A-R-K-223-556-308-Shell-Catcher-quad-rail-forearm-mount-4-15-receiver-/271914750396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4f61d1bc

They are designed for a quad rail fore end, but one of my AR-15 rifles (6.8 SPC) has a round free float fore end so I drilled and tapped holes to mount a picatinny rail on the side where I could mount the brass catcher. Easy modification to do. They come with mounting rings, but they are screw on type. Another useful mod is to get some cheap quick release rings for it so removal is quick and easy when storing or transporting the rifle.

 

[chkunz]

Don't forget that if you are mag feeding, you will probably have to apply a slight crimp to the bullet in order to keep the bullet seating depth consistent. Sometimes the bullets get banged around pretty good when feeding into the chamber. Good neck tension might be enough though. Just make sure to measure a handful of rounds rounds from base to ogive, chamber them a couple times from the magazine with a hard release of the charging handle, then re-measure to make sure they are the same.

On another note, being a handloader for an AR can be a real pain in the butt to recover brass if you don't have a good brass catcher. Thos Caldwell bags are junk after the get some weight in them. Here is a link to the best brass cather I have ever used. I have two of them. They are odd looking and bulky, but don't add a lot of extra weight. Fully adjustable and extremely durable. Any extra weight they do add is well worth the convenience and reliability they provide.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brass-S-H-A-R-K-223-556-308-Shell-Catcher-quad-rail-forearm-mount-4-15-receiver-/271914750396?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4f61d1bc

They are designed for a quad rail fore end, but one of my AR-15 rifles (6.8 SPC) has a round free float fore end so I drilled and tapped holes to mount a picatinny rail on the side where I could mount the brass catcher. Easy modification to do. They come with mounting rings, but they are screw on type. Another useful mod is to get some cheap quick release rings for it so removal is quick and easy when storing or transporting the rifle.

You make a good point on the potential for bullets moving during the chambering operation with all that goes on with the semi auto. Just for reference I use 0.003 neck tension and no crimp and have never had a problem with the bullets moving in the case during the chambering operation. I have run a test where I chambered the same round several times and measured for movement and never detected any bullet movement with this amount of tension.

 

[Syncrowave]

I'm not sure you can use precision and AR together, LOL.

I've been chasing down a load for my precision built AR and seem to be non existent. I'm using regular Redding 223 dies for a 223 Wylde chamber. Throwing all changes on a lab scale and basically applying all BR style of loading to the AR. Once you pick up a fired case, I'm wondering why I'm even bothering, LOL.

Seems like all the super shooing AR's(1/4-1/2 MOA) are built off of stout billet uppers that are thick walled compared to the paper thin milspec stuff. I dunno...there are way more AR guys on here that can give you more info than me.

I don't think 1/2 MOA is all that much to ask from an AR.


My fairly vanilla AR with a NM upper (RRA) shoots 1 MOA fairly consistently with irons at 100. With a scope and a decent shooter, you could probably cut that in half.