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Questions in making 20VT brass from LC, Forming Steps & Trimmer Used?

TheCZKid

Silver $$ Contributor
Recently I go it into my head "I need a 20 VarTarg!" Actually I'll blame that partly on a fellow member who suggested I did, and I then readily agreed! Of course I do!! So I'm in the hunt for the right used rifle, and have some prospects I'm looking at...

However, in the mean time, I already have started forming 20 VT brass from LC 5.56. I just had to do something!
I got the 90101 forming die, then using Redding bushing die without the guts for next stage, then last will use the Redding 20VT body die for last forming stage. I made a spiffy looking photo so illustrate what I'm talking about.

Froming Brass Lg.jpg
Right now, since I don't have the actual rifle or chamber neck diameter, I'm have formed about 800 pieces of brass to stage 2, using just the bushing die.

Half Formed Brass.jpg

First question is about how far I can go in forming brass, before I have the chamber specs. I'd like to go forward to the last stage of forming the brass with the body die, trimming them to 1.395" to 1.40" in length, then run expander from the bushing die through the necks to make the inside diameter correct, and then stop. I can turn the necks after I find out if the neck chamber will be .232" or .234" ID.

My question: Would the brass be sized okay for most any 20VT chamber if I use form these with the Redding body die? I'm using a Forster Co-Ax press and the die is set so I'm just slightly camming the die over, seems it would form it fine for any chamber. I'd like to get these progressed as far as makes sense. I figuring the last thing I'd need to do is neck turn when I know how much, and I should be good to go. Am I risking making the shoulder length wrong if I do this?

Question two: For trimming the brass to length, I've got the Harbor Freight chop saw and 221FB jig, and have it set to cut about 1.415" and then I can do a final length trim from there. My normal trimmer I use for everything else is a Trim-It, and it does a good job. I can do a decent job with the 223 bearing / bushing, and can get a custom bushing for 20VT by sending off to be made... Was also thinking of Little Crow WFT, anyone used one?

Final question: For buying a rifle in 20 VT, I'm considering 3 right now, there's a very sharp CZ which has a new PacNor barrel and stock, and was made by a really good gunsmith.
Also a Cooper 21 which would need the barrel changed to 20 VT...
And last a Sako L46 early model with Riihimaki magazine, also built by a renowned gunsmith, but I'm worried that is not the best action for the 20 VT (L461 would be best).
Anyone have a CZ and how do you like it?
I like the Cooper, nice wood, just more expensive and Cooper no longer does 20 VT as of this week, so PacNor or whoever...
Chime in on the Sako L46 with magazine, should this be avoided?
 
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I went with 221 trim die and a 221 case check gauge.
Have not made up my mind on how I am going to address neck wall thickness, 20 or 22. I thought I was going to pull a fast one and use 222 brass and come out with ready to go brass, nope.
I think I am going to ream to get rid of some and then neck true it up.

I read where some me folks say the brass they buy on line made from LC 5.56 they just load and shoot. Maybe there are some reamers ground for such brass? Mine is not for darn sure 221 RP brass is at a minimum for clearance now, a skim turn would hurt nothing.

I may well jump ship from the Vartarg just because of brass availability and go to the turbo.

Go ahead and say I told you so or you were fore warned……………………
 
First question is yes.
Although out of stock at the moment, High Plains brass makes 20VT brass. I bought some 2 yrs ago and found it of good quality and necks within spec for my barrel. http://www.highplainsbrass.com/20-VarTarg-Brass-Case--100-Rounds_p_19.html
The VT is a great round. My groups with the 35 gr Berger varmint is measured in .000". I used Norma 221 brass necked down. Its my favorite rifle for varmints. Currently waiting on a 6XC tube for another build for a long range varmint rifle
 
First question is yes.
The VT is a great round. My groups with the 35 gr Berger varmint is measured in .000". I used Norma 221 brass necked down. Its my favorite rifle for varmints. Currently waiting on a 6XC tube for another build for a long range varmint rifle
So, Yes, as it I should be able to form them with the last die and be fine in general?
I see people are using formed brass from High Plains and others, and they chamber fine. I just need to turn the necks to right thickness and they should be ready to Rock-N-Roll!
 
Go with a .234 neck reamer and you won't need to turn necks.
If I do have a barrel cut myself I'd probably go with .234 and Zero freebore, not sure yet.
After I get the LC brass fully formed, and run the expander through the necks, they are still too thick to fit in a .234, so I'll need to turn them a little. But I was expecting that anyways.

I have some Norma 223 brass that I ran though the dies to check, and the neck thickness was ended up being a LOT thicker than the LC. I've got a lot of LC, and have read others had good results with it, so I decided to make my 20VT from those.
 
Great illustration -- thanks for providing that. But my goodness, a .20 Practical is Sooooo much easier. Neck down, load and go....

1649876787222.png


 
Great illustration -- thanks for providing that. But my goodness, a .20 Practical is Sooooo much easier. Neck down, load and go....

View attachment 1333432


I know!! I actually have a 20 Practical and it' so.... Practical!
 
Great illustration -- thanks for providing that. But my goodness, a .20 Practical is Sooooo much easier. Neck down, load and go....
Or just build a 20-221 and forget about the cult like following of a 20VT.

If you want a little more velocity and something that'll feed slicker than snot through any 223 size action build a 20-222.
 
Or just build a 20-221 and forget about the cult like following of a 20VT.

If you want a little more velocity and something that'll feed slicker than snot through any 223 size action build a 20-222.
Well, I just committed to buy a nice Sako version which was built by a really good gunsmith, so I'm in the cult now!

I've got a 20 Practical in AR, 24" bull barrel, it's a beast, weighs 13 pounds. I am looking forward to having a new project to mess with, and I'd rather bring a nice bolt gun sage rat shooting over the AR, as my other sage rat guns are bolt action too, and plenty accurate.
 
I have a CZ 527 that was a 204 set back to a 20VT and form my brass from LC223 brass. Mine is a .232 nk and zero freebore which I think is perfect for 20VT.
As usual you get alot of opinions, ive probably made 1,500 20VT and 20SCC and turned every single neck, what else you got to do in the winter i consider it no big deal.
I seriously doudt even a. 234 nk you could get away without turning on 223 brass, I dont like nks that thick anyway to hard to control nk tension.
All mine are .228 loaded round. Look at it this way once your done you will have brass that will ask along time, by the way you and form brass pretty much the same way. If you have some a fired 20 VT case try and copy that with your forming brass then when you find out whst your chamber is you can FL size and trim necks to match.
I doudt you will be disappointed in the 20VT I have 2 and don't regret it one bit
 
I have a CZ 527 that was a 204 set back to a 20VT and form my brass from LC223 brass. Mine is a .232 nk and zero freebore which I think is perfect for 20VT.

All mine are .228 loaded round. Look at it this way once your done you will have brass that will ask along time, by the way you and form brass pretty much the same way. If you have some a fired 20 VT case try and copy that with your forming brass then when you find out what your chamber is you can FL size and trim necks to match.
I doubt you will be disappointed in the 20VT I have 2 and don't regret it one bit
The Sako I just committed to buy has a .232 neck zero freebore, and I'll make up a few test rounds, go shoot those, come back and measure the shoulder and then size my batch to be say .002 shorter than the shot brass, probably .228 or .229 outside loaded measurement.
I already know I'm going to turn all the necks, it's a one time deal, and it'll take a lot of work, but in the end it'll be worth it. I don't want to spend .69 to 1.00 a piece for 221 empty brass, I'd rather spend that on powder, a scope, primers, bullets... 5.56 LC Brass and time I have more than money.
 
Great illustration -- thanks for providing that. But my goodness, a .20 Practical is Sooooo much easier. Neck down, load and go....

View attachment 1333432


I can’t argue the 20P. I have a 204 Ruger and plenty of brass. When the 204 gives up, I may go with the 20P if I am out of 204 brass.

The 221 case just doesn’t heat up a barrel the way the larger cases do. I bought a 17 fireball while I was waiting on my 17Remington. I ordered the 20VT barrel while I was waiting on the 20 BR.
I really considered the 20-222, but the barrel maker didn’t offer it.
 
I can’t argue the 20P. I have a 204 Ruger and plenty of brass. When the 204 gives up, I may go with the 20P if I am out of 204 brass.

The 221 case just doesn’t heat up a barrel the way the larger cases do. I bought a 17 fireball while I was waiting on my 17Remington. I ordered the 20VT barrel while I was waiting on the 20 BR.
I really considered the 20-222, but the barrel maker didn’t offer it.
I looked at the 204 Ruger as an option, except the brass was a bit expensive to accumulate, and happened upon the article about the 20P... I had never considered a wildcat, but I have thousands of .223 / 5.56 brass, so it just made sense to check it out. And the intrigue of the "wildcat" round... oooh sounded cool too.

Sorta same thing with the 20VT. I ended up meeting a guy from this forum, who happed to live in the same town as me! There was a thread about Sage Rat shooting in Oregon, and that is my passion, "most fun you can have with a rifle" I've heard said. It's a bonus that this caliber can also be made from a 223 case. Plus, it doesn't heat up the barrel like larger capacity ammo will. Plus the accuracy is inherent. I'll know for myself in about two to three weeks I hope.
 
I looked at the 204 Ruger as an option, except the brass was a bit expensive to accumulate, and happened upon the article about the 20P... I had never considered a wildcat, but I have thousands of .223 / 5.56 brass, so it just made sense to check it out. And the intrigue of the "wildcat" round... oooh sounded cool too.

Sorta same thing with the 20VT. I ended up meeting a guy from this forum, who happed to live in the same town as me! There was a thread about Sage Rat shooting in Oregon, and that is my passion, "most fun you can have with a rifle" I've heard said. It's a bonus that this caliber can also be made from a 223 case. Plus, it doesn't heat up the barrel like larger capacity ammo will. Plus the accuracy is inherent. I'll know for myself in about two to three weeks I hope.
I highly suggest you do some type of sorting of brass. I see quite a few that use various cases and end up with various results.

I have several 5 gallon buckets of various indoor range brass 5.56/223. None the less that does not make me lean towards sorting 500 out to make a lot for varmint hunting. I would sell15-20 gallons to buy 1k of new brass. I find my time more valuable today than I did a short 20-25 years ago.
 
I highly suggest you do some type of sorting of brass. I see quite a few that use various cases and end up with various results.

I have several 5 gallon buckets of various indoor range brass 5.56/223. None the less that does not make me lean towards sorting 500 out to make a lot for varmint hunting. I would sell15-20 gallons to buy 1k of new brass. I find my time more valuable today than I did a short 20-25 years ago.
I'm using only LC brass once shot, in nice shape with no blemishes. None are from machine guns, just picked up at a local gravel pit where people buy it in town, and shoot it, then leave it on the ground.

Are you talking about sorting by weight, year stamp, or what parameters? After I form them into the final form and turn the necks I was going to anneal them before the first firing. I haven't checked if my cases in final test formings ended up weight much different from one another, but I think I will right now, out of curiosity.
 
I have used thousands of processed LC brass in years, I sort by head stamp and year. I have bought virgin LC from Grafs and Midway.

Make sure and address the primer pockets, what a pita. They changed the way they stake primers and I sure have more problems than I did in the 80’s and 90’s.
 

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