PVM-21
- Thread starter btm_54
- Start date
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't know but now that I have posted it will be easy to follow your thread because I HATE HATE HATE HATE!!!! My pact with infrared it is $280 piece of Junk! I wish I had bought a oehler 35 or the PV21, I have heard a few on here comment positively on the pv21.
Wayne.
Wayne.
Kyle Schultz
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm pretty sure Mark Walker bought one in the past couple of months. I bet he'll share his thoughts as soon as he sees this thread.
Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
TonyR and sleepygator each have one, they have talked very highly of them.
I thought about buying one, but ended up buying an Oehler 35, couldn't be happier with it!
I thought about buying one, but ended up buying an Oehler 35, couldn't be happier with it!
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
I've owned and used a PVM-21 for about a year and a half now. After a few initial problems that were user related (i.e., don't try using a longer CAT5 cable), it's been outstanding for me. I don't really use the software that came with it, other than to download and read off the recorded velocities from the unit.
One thing I like about it is that it has a fairly wide reading "window", which makes it pretty quick and easy to setup. It also works well in all of the conditions I have encountered, including rain, direct sunlight, cloudy, etc., etc...
I like being able to just go out and shoot multiple rifles through it without having to record every single round on paper- I just clear it before starting, note how many rounds I shot through it with a given rifle, and then dump it all when I get home for analysis.
I also bought a CCTV Li-ion battery to use with it that is way more convenient (and longer lasting) than the motorcycle battery and alligator clips that were shipped with it. It cost about $19 for 1800maH.
- Jay
One thing I like about it is that it has a fairly wide reading "window", which makes it pretty quick and easy to setup. It also works well in all of the conditions I have encountered, including rain, direct sunlight, cloudy, etc., etc...
I like being able to just go out and shoot multiple rifles through it without having to record every single round on paper- I just clear it before starting, note how many rounds I shot through it with a given rifle, and then dump it all when I get home for analysis.
I also bought a CCTV Li-ion battery to use with it that is way more convenient (and longer lasting) than the motorcycle battery and alligator clips that were shipped with it. It cost about $19 for 1800maH.
- Jay
TheBlueEyedBear
'The Nut Behind The Trigger'
This is the ROLLS ROYCE of chronograph units. Of all the others that I have owned, NONE come close. Lighting conditions are of no concern (although, I haven't shot in the dark, yet). One of the big selling factors for me was the inclusion of QUICKLOAD.
I'm pretty sure I have bought my last chronograph!!
I'm pretty sure I have bought my last chronograph!!
Forum Boss
Administrator
The PVM-21, as a shot recorder, works great. It WILL record in any conditions, including complete darkness. It is reliable and fast to set up, and it does have a nice, big "Sweet spot". It is our preferred testing unit (and we have access to Oehler, PACT, CED, Shooting Chrony, RCBS). It is outstanding in its capability to record the shot and show a speed.
That said, 90% of the users are essentially using their PVMs manually -- the base unit shows shot number and velocity -- and the users are writing these numbers down with pencil and paper, and then doing their own ES and SD calculations with hand calculators.
Why are people having to write down the numbers? The reason is the unreliable software. The PVM is designed to hook into a laptop computer. Unfortunately the software is problematic to install and it is buggy -- very buggy. I've installed the software on four different Windows machines, following the directions precisely, and there were installation issues with every machine. With a couple machines I had to do some serious driver hacking to get the PVM software to start up. But even if you get the software to run, it is NOT intuitive and it is far too complex. All the software really needs to do is let you name/number a string, identify the gun/load, then record the shots and calculate ES, SD and mean. But the software is NOT intuitive -- There's a good chance you won't be able to figure out how to set up a string. There's also a significant chance the software will crash during your session.
So most folks leave the laptop at home and write down the numbers with a pencil and paper. That's an under-utilization of the PVM's capabilities, but most folks are forced to do things manually because of the crappy software.
If the PVM could somehow be mated to an Oehler base unit with simple buttons and a plain paper printer, we'd be in heaven. But that's not going to happen. And don't count on the software being improved any time soon. I've discussed this with the PVM's designer and he adamantly defends his program saying that all problems are caused by the Windows OS, not his programming. He's in DENIAL -- so he's not going to debug the software, nor create a simple USB interface so the PVM could work like 99% of modern peripherals.
That said, 90% of the users are essentially using their PVMs manually -- the base unit shows shot number and velocity -- and the users are writing these numbers down with pencil and paper, and then doing their own ES and SD calculations with hand calculators.
Why are people having to write down the numbers? The reason is the unreliable software. The PVM is designed to hook into a laptop computer. Unfortunately the software is problematic to install and it is buggy -- very buggy. I've installed the software on four different Windows machines, following the directions precisely, and there were installation issues with every machine. With a couple machines I had to do some serious driver hacking to get the PVM software to start up. But even if you get the software to run, it is NOT intuitive and it is far too complex. All the software really needs to do is let you name/number a string, identify the gun/load, then record the shots and calculate ES, SD and mean. But the software is NOT intuitive -- There's a good chance you won't be able to figure out how to set up a string. There's also a significant chance the software will crash during your session.
So most folks leave the laptop at home and write down the numbers with a pencil and paper. That's an under-utilization of the PVM's capabilities, but most folks are forced to do things manually because of the crappy software.
If the PVM could somehow be mated to an Oehler base unit with simple buttons and a plain paper printer, we'd be in heaven. But that's not going to happen. And don't count on the software being improved any time soon. I've discussed this with the PVM's designer and he adamantly defends his program saying that all problems are caused by the Windows OS, not his programming. He's in DENIAL -- so he's not going to debug the software, nor create a simple USB interface so the PVM could work like 99% of modern peripherals.
My PVM-21 has been a good performer, providing accurate, dependable readings in all conditions. It has a large active area and is easy to set up and use.
I have not had the problems with software others have noted. The way I use the system is much like Jay. I clear memory before use, record my entire shooting session (up to 250 rounds), connect it to a PC at home and dump the buffer. The software has a reporting capability that I use to export the data. I write the report to file and then import it into my reloading spreadsheet for analysis.
In the interests of full disclosure; I am a senior IT Manager for a major defense contractor. Other than customizing the report to my use, those skills were not required in this application. The software will not run on 64-bit Windows but that should not be an issue for the majority of purchasers.
I have not had the problems with software others have noted. The way I use the system is much like Jay. I clear memory before use, record my entire shooting session (up to 250 rounds), connect it to a PC at home and dump the buffer. The software has a reporting capability that I use to export the data. I write the report to file and then import it into my reloading spreadsheet for analysis.
In the interests of full disclosure; I am a senior IT Manager for a major defense contractor. Other than customizing the report to my use, those skills were not required in this application. The software will not run on 64-bit Windows but that should not be an issue for the majority of purchasers.
I have tested the software on 64-bit XP (does not work), 64-bit Win 7 (does not work) and 32-bit XP (works). It may work on 32-bit Win 7, I have not tested it. As far as I know, it is no longer possible to purchase a machine with XP installed or to acquire it separately. Using the software as Jay and I do, it is really not necessary to have a laptop. The display unit shows every shot velocity and that meets my needs at the bench. Like Jay, I also take notes while shooting but do not manually record shot velocities.
If I have some spare time (intentional joke), I will set up a machine with Win 7 32 and test it. I run Pro/ENGINEER at home and use 64-bit Win 7. The PVM-21 software is running on an old XP 32 machine salvaged from my younger daughter.
If I have some spare time (intentional joke), I will set up a machine with Win 7 32 and test it. I run Pro/ENGINEER at home and use 64-bit Win 7. The PVM-21 software is running on an old XP 32 machine salvaged from my younger daughter.
Forum Boss
Administrator
It's great to be able to dump the data like this. However, when you are testing multiple loads/bullets and/or multiple rifles, all those numbers can get confusing unless you keep a careful log identifying the shots (Eg. "first 20 shots, 6BR, Varget 30.2").
The software, when it works, is capable of naming a string with a unique title, augmented by a notes field that can include load info, rifle info, etc. That's GREAT when it works. But in my experience there's a good chance the laptop software will crash or lock-up after a few strings. (This is with four different 32bit Windows XP laptops.) Then you have messed up data in the computer, although you probably still have the raw data in the little receiver unit.
With a computer disconnected, and the unit running off a 12v battery, we have found the unit to be extremely reliable (as long as you remember to clear the cache now and then). 95% of the problems come with hooking up the PVM to a computer while shooting. If you're content to keep a notepad and write down the numbers, the machine should work almost flawlessly for you. It's just ridiculous that a unit this costly requires a peripheral laptop to do something so elementary as calculate ES and SD. With no computer connected, all that the unit gives you is string number and velocity per shot.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
Sounds to me like the PVM-21 is a expensive play toy that is very temperamental, I know the oehler 35 works, at least in the day time, I sure wished they made a reliable infrared chronograph, I like to shoot early in the a.m and late in the p,m I guess if I want something reliable I will have to buy another cheap chrony or the Oehler35.
Wayne.
Wayne.
Forum Boss
Administrator
bozo699 said:
Perhaps I didn't make my comments clear. The PVM is probably the MOST reliable, easy to use chronograph on the market... so long as you don't let it near a computer. If you can make do with a shot number and a velocity, which you then write down, then the PVM will perform like a champ. The problems are all releated to the computer interface. You do NOT need a computer to run the PVM. It has a little white box that receives the shot info and displays the string number and shot velocity.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
ForumBoss,
Maybe I did misunderstand, a chronograph is just about worthless to me if it doesn't give the SD/ES, High/Low, and average spd, if it does that I am interested if you have to hook up a computer to get than pertinent information or if I have to take the time to figure it out on a hand calculator then I am NOT interested, as that is a lot of money just for raw velocity readings, thanks for your time and knowledge on the subject.
Wayne.
Maybe I did misunderstand, a chronograph is just about worthless to me if it doesn't give the SD/ES, High/Low, and average spd, if it does that I am interested if you have to hook up a computer to get than pertinent information or if I have to take the time to figure it out on a hand calculator then I am NOT interested, as that is a lot of money just for raw velocity readings, thanks for your time and knowledge on the subject.
Wayne.
I purchased a unit roughly a month ago. Like it. Software was a pain to get working. Happy with the unit.
Chip
Chip
Jay Christopherson
Not An Admin
I run the software on Windows XP, running on a virtual machine on my Mac laptop. Works fine. I don't bother to drag my laptop around though, I just have the VM for dumping data when I get home.
Like Paul mentioned, when I am at the range with multiple loads/rifles, I simply write down my string order - "6 Dasher, 20 shots, <pertinent_info>" before shooting each string with a new load/rifle. It's pretty simple. When I dump the raw data via the software, you can simply select the the shots in order (based on your string info) and it will show you E.S., S.D., etc... it's cool that you can select any random number of shots to get that data from the string if you want. Mostly now though, I just import to my load data spreadsheet (tab for each rifle) and let it do the calculations (I wrote a forumla to calculate all that for me - I just select the cells that contain the data I want calculated).
Like Paul mentioned, when I am at the range with multiple loads/rifles, I simply write down my string order - "6 Dasher, 20 shots, <pertinent_info>" before shooting each string with a new load/rifle. It's pretty simple. When I dump the raw data via the software, you can simply select the the shots in order (based on your string info) and it will show you E.S., S.D., etc... it's cool that you can select any random number of shots to get that data from the string if you want. Mostly now though, I just import to my load data spreadsheet (tab for each rifle) and let it do the calculations (I wrote a forumla to calculate all that for me - I just select the cells that contain the data I want calculated).
sleepygator said:
I have not used the software, as it is no issue to write down the #s and import into an excel doc and calc everything.
Thing is awesome at the range, and easy to transport. Love it so far!
Thing is awesome at the range, and easy to transport. Love it so far!
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
I guess I am missing the boat $730 and you need a laptop to figure the info needed?? or a hand calculator and a degree in mathematics! Well I guess Paul and the rest of you know what your talking about and I need a reliable chronograph which the pact II isn't and I like to shoot at night so infrared is a must, I have a oehler 43 but it isn't easy to set up and the tubes are hard to find. Maybe one of you mathematicians could send me the formula to calculate SD or maybe the spread sheet Jay referred to in excel and I will just say to heck with it and buy the PV-21, if the Oehler 35 had infrared I know for sure which I would buy, everytime you shoot your target hit print and staple the printout to the target and Analise when you get home, or next week or when ever. Anyway thank you Paul, Jay, Mark, Barry and the rest of you guy's for trying to make a dummy like me understand 
I appreciate it.
Wayne.
I appreciate it.Wayne.
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