PRS Guns out to 1200 yards

[SweaterDood]

If I wanted to "Ring steel" at, 1,000 - 1,200 yards, RELIABLY, I would choose, a High BC, 140 - 144 grain Bullet for, a "Blown out", 6.5 X 55 GWI or, AI at, 2,950ish FPS with, "reasonable recoil" and Flat shooting,..
NOT, an old, .308 that,,, drops like, a Rock !
SORRY in advance, if that, offends anyone.

This but with a 130-135gr .25cal pill launched from the barrel at 3080-3160fps. Trace looks like the wake from a Mastercraft, and it usually swings the targets pretty good even on impacts to 1000. Never had any issue hearing impacts either

 

[mauser284]

If all we are talking about is ringing steel at 1200 meter's or hitting paper I can do that with an 8x57 Mauser. Let alone something with a slick bullet and better use of bullet and powder. 10 years ago and earlier I could do it all day with iron sights even. Greater technology has not made massively better shooters!

I agree with the other's that not being able to spot the shot is the bigger deal combined with wind reading being more and more crucial the further out you go. The smaller diameter bullets do not buck the wind very well!

Just look at how hard it is to see hits on steel at 500, 600, 800 meters with something like 5.56! You can often hit the steel more than once and miss it and not hear it but when you review the go-pro by the target latter you see you actually hit the steel 3 times that you thought you missed it. On the other hand a ballisticlly inferior cartridge like 7.62x39 is far easier to spot at those same distances hit or no hit!

They only way to solve this short of technology is to be able to freshly paint the steel between shooters which is simply not practical in competition or at many practice ranges.

This is why you really need a setup with targets scored by humans down range on paper or with technological equal to humans down range with pull down targets scored real time!

For 308 you need 185gr. hand loads or heavier to do 1200 meters reliably and not key hole the factory stuff just does not get it done. I tend to think that way for the 6mm and 6.5mm stuff. I shoot F both FTR and Unlimited. In fact this is way in early to mid 1990's I went to 190gr. bullets and heavier for 300 Win Mag.

You might want to look up the Sandy Hook Tests of the 45-70 being shot at 2500 yards and later 3200 yards. Using only a barrel rest with rifle held at the shoulder standing up with iron sights the 45-70 was hitting a 6 foot bullseye at 2500 yards in 1879. I dare say a 45-70 is not a hi velocity cartridge and is about as aerodynamic as a house brick and is not transonic at 2500 yards!

PRS guys like all sports make some really stupid decision with gear not because they are stupid people but because every sport has it's compromises to produce the best compromise with regards to the rules and conditions! That is why an F1 car and it's every design element would fail in WRC, NASCAR, BAJA 500-1000, SCORE, and the same could be said for all of those other compromises that are perfect for that one sport but no other.


Based on my experience with .243 Win I would not hesitate to do 1200m on calm day with a 6CM and heavy VLD/ELD bullets.

Transonic area is not a big deal with right bullet an loads some shapes handle the transition better than other's do!

Watch this video of 6.5 Grendel at 1500m on steel and milk jug full of colored water for the difficulty of calling the shot!

When I can get to those distances hitting the target is not the hard part it is spotting the hit's and misses that is almost mission impossible.

In fact both the 25-06 and .243 Win are amazing rounds on calm days for long range work but on the windy days and past 1000m almost impossible to spot hits and misses and wind adjustments are insanely difficult compared to making those same calls with something heavier and balistlclly inferior like a 30-06 with 185gr-200gr bullet. That is just my opinion based on my experience but I grew up shooting Palma with iron sights and X-Course with 30-06, 6.5x55 and .308 Win and doing competitive shooting in Boy Scouts and latter ROTC. When I started silhouette I started with .308 Win. I can remember making due with 155gr bullets in Palma.

My gas gun is 6.5 Grendel and it would be my last choice to use at 1200m were anything other than hitting the target counts! For 1200m especialy if group size counts I would be looking at 6.5CM, .260 Rem, .284 Win, .280 Rem or .280 AI. I have to use .308 Win in FTR no one would use it by choice especialy for 1200m that is why almost no one uses it in Unlimited!

I would select the cartridge I wanted to shoot that was within the rules and then maximize my experience and dope card. I have reloaded since 1995 or so. The fewer shots I have to take per competition the more recoil I could be willing to take to get my perfect compromise. I am built like an NFL offensive lineman so recoil is not a big problem for me depending on the round count each day. Plus if I am shooting from a bench I can not take nearly as much recoil as I can from other positions. How much can the rifle weight? Can I use a muzzle device be it a break or a suppressor?

I have seen guys with what is to all onlookers a compromised rig like using a short action Savage for a 6.5-7mm cartridge that required them to seat the bullet into the powder charge eating into powder capacity to feed from magazine still win! I have seen entire groups of people shooting the 6.5-284 get beat by the "inferior" straight 284 Win. I have seen guys using the .243 Win crush what were "superior" cartridges in F.

I would say stop looking for the perfect cartridge and pick something that your fancy that excites you that your interested in and shoot the $h!t out of it and master reloading and master your wind reading with that cartridge!

If you can only afford one gun and need to make it work for more than one shooting sport just do it and have fun. Never make excuses and do not let the opinion of other's get too far into your head, heart or shooting because you will pych yourself out and will be constantly disappointed if you listen to idiots like me and other's on the internet too much!

 

[eric32]

So I'll put it like this

Spotting Trace
Seeing Splash
Repeatable Corrections

Those are the elements that require successful engagements when on the clock or shooting alone. If the cartiage selection meets the above criteria then all is well

Fundamental applied through recoil that allow the shooter to observe the bullet in flight to then interpret the flight path of the bullet based on conditions.

Splash is the effects the round either at impact of the target. Or the ability to see where the miss is hitting. Clouds of dust on a berm.

Corrections must be repeatable.so the bullet must be stable thru transonic and not fall apart.

 

[Rob01]

If all we are talking about is ringing steel at 1200 meter's or hitting paper I can do that with an 8x57 Mauser. Let alone something with a slick bullet and better use of bullet and powder. 10 years ago and earlier I could do it all day with iron sights even. Greater technology has not made massively better shooters!

I agree with the other's that not being able to spot the shot is the bigger deal combined with wind reading being more and more crucial the further out you go. The smaller diameter bullets do not buck the wind very well!

Just look at how hard it is to see hits on steel at 500, 600, 800 meters with something like 5.56! You can often hit the steel more than once and miss it and not hear it but when you review the go-pro by the target latter you see you actually hit the steel 3 times that you thought you missed it. On the other hand a ballisticlly inferior cartridge like 7.62x39 is far easier to spot at those same distances hit or no hit!

They only way to solve this short of technology is to be able to freshly paint the steel between shooters which is simply not practical in competition or at many practice ranges.

This is why you really need a setup with targets scored by humans down range on paper or with technological equal to humans down range with pull down targets scored real time!

For 308 you need 185gr. hand loads or heavier to do 1200 meters reliably and not key hole the factory stuff just does not get it done. I tend to think that way for the 6mm and 6.5mm stuff. I shoot F both FTR and Unlimited. In fact this is way in early to mid 1990's I went to 190gr. bullets and heavier for 300 Win Mag.

You might want to look up the Sandy Hook Tests of the 45-70 being shot at 2500 yards and later 3200 yards. Using only a barrel rest with rifle held at the shoulder standing up with iron sights the 45-70 was hitting a 6 foot bullseye at 2500 yards in 1879. I dare say a 45-70 is not a hi velocity cartridge and is about as aerodynamic as a house brick and is not transonic at 2500 yards!

PRS guys like all sports make some really stupid decision with gear not because they are stupid people but because every sport has it's compromises to produce the best compromise with regards to the rules and conditions! That is why an F1 car and it's every design element would fail in WRC, NASCAR, BAJA 500-1000, SCORE, and the same could be said for all of those other compromises that are perfect for that one sport but no other.


Based on my experience with .243 Win I would not hesitate to do 1200m on calm day with a 6CM and heavy VLD/ELD bullets.

Transonic area is not a big deal with right bullet an loads some shapes handle the transition better than other's do!

Watch this video of 6.5 Grendel at 1500m on steel and milk jug full of colored water for the difficulty of calling the shot!

When I can get to those distances hitting the target is not the hard part it is spotting the hit's and misses that is almost mission impossible.

In fact both the 25-06 and .243 Win are amazing rounds on calm days for long range work but on the windy days and past 1000m almost impossible to spot hits and misses and wind adjustments are insanely difficult compared to making those same calls with something heavier and balistlclly inferior like a 30-06 with 185gr-200gr bullet. That is just my opinion based on my experience but I grew up shooting Palma with iron sights and X-Course with 30-06, 6.5x55 and .308 Win and doing competitive shooting in Boy Scouts and latter ROTC. When I started silhouette I started with .308 Win. I can remember making due with 155gr bullets in Palma.

My gas gun is 6.5 Grendel and it would be my last choice to use at 1200m were anything other than hitting the target counts! For 1200m especialy if group size counts I would be looking at 6.5CM, .260 Rem, .284 Win, .280 Rem or .280 AI. I have to use .308 Win in FTR no one would use it by choice especialy for 1200m that is why almost no one uses it in Unlimited!

I would select the cartridge I wanted to shoot that was within the rules and then maximize my experience and dope card. I have reloaded since 1995 or so. The fewer shots I have to take per competition the more recoil I could be willing to take to get my perfect compromise. I am built like an NFL offensive lineman so recoil is not a big problem for me depending on the round count each day. Plus if I am shooting from a bench I can not take nearly as much recoil as I can from other positions. How much can the rifle weight? Can I use a muzzle device be it a break or a suppressor?

I have seen guys with what is to all onlookers a compromised rig like using a short action Savage for a 6.5-7mm cartridge that required them to seat the bullet into the powder charge eating into powder capacity to feed from magazine still win! I have seen entire groups of people shooting the 6.5-284 get beat by the "inferior" straight 284 Win. I have seen guys using the .243 Win crush what were "superior" cartridges in F.

I would say stop looking for the perfect cartridge and pick something that your fancy that excites you that your interested in and shoot the $h!t out of it and master reloading and master your wind reading with that cartridge!

If you can only afford one gun and need to make it work for more than one shooting sport just do it and have fun. Never make excuses and do not let the opinion of other's get too far into your head, heart or shooting because you will pych yourself out and will be constantly disappointed if you listen to idiots like me and other's on the internet too much!

Do you shoot PRS/NRL?

Also with the .308 you do not need to load 185 weight bullets to reliably hit to 1200 yards. Many do it with 178 and under as the rules of the sport is you can not use over a 178grn bullet for Tac class. I do it with factory loaded 168 ELD-M ammo.