PRS Guns out to 1200 yards
- Thread starter Barossa_222
- Start date
Long thread for a simple answer. Yes.
6br w/105gr+/- @ 2850fps+/- PMS style rifle is very consistent at 1200y. Conditions can be a factor.
xswanted
Gold $$ Contributor
If you look at what most of the top shooters are shooting as well as many of the amateurs, the 6BR Variants are dominate, along with the 6mm Lapua and Creedmoor.
With 95-115 grain bullets all of these cartridges can be successfully accurate at 1200 yards.
They don’t necessarily “shine” at those distances but they can and do, do it.
Ive shot my 6x47 to 1300 with 110s and to 1200 with 107s. Misses were all fault of the shooter and not due to poor ballistics.
Having said all of that, I wouldn’t shy away from a 6mm something because if it’s performance at 1200 yards though, the majority of your shots in PRS type shooting are under 800 yards.
Furthest I’ve ever shot was a .308 to a grand. Don’t remember target size but it was big. Like 2 MOA big.
Buddy has an awesome custom gradeous. Defiance, manners T4A, trigger tech, 26 inch barrel in 6.5 CM with factory Hornady 147 grain ELDM. I watched him get multiple hits on a full sized IPSC at 1200 yards. It took maybe 2-3 rounds with me spotting for him to get on target. I think at that range scope is more important than the rifle. He was shooting a Kahles 525i.
We are not great shots. But we are both engineers and love and respect cool gear. We shoot top tier equipment and trust the math, so shooting to 1200 with my buddies set up was very doable. If we can do it, anyone can do it.
Buddy has an awesome custom gradeous. Defiance, manners T4A, trigger tech, 26 inch barrel in 6.5 CM with factory Hornady 147 grain ELDM. I watched him get multiple hits on a full sized IPSC at 1200 yards. It took maybe 2-3 rounds with me spotting for him to get on target. I think at that range scope is more important than the rifle. He was shooting a Kahles 525i.
We are not great shots. But we are both engineers and love and respect cool gear. We shoot top tier equipment and trust the math, so shooting to 1200 with my buddies set up was very doable. If we can do it, anyone can do it.
Disclaimer: I don't shoot PRS. I'm a knuckle dragging Palma shooter who mostly slings 155gr bullets out of a 30" 308 with iron sights at 1000 yrds at a 1-MOA X ring and 2-MOA 10 ring paper target.
There was a bit of discussion about bullets "making" it to 1200, the transonic effects, modern bullet design, etc. I'll offer a little food for thought.
1.) A 308 can push a Berger 155 hybrid to be supersonic at 1200 yards, and I personally saw someone do this to win a prone sling match over others shooting 6s/6.5s. 2.) I've also seen people push a 30cal 168gr Sierra matchking as hard as they can trying to make it to 1000 yrds, and it is like the bullet hits a brick wall at around 800-900 yards. It slows down fast, and tumbles like a gymnast as it approaches transonic speeds. If they happen to hit a target, they're likely keyholing and barely making it through the thick cardboard. 3.) I've pulled pits at 1000 for folks shooting 175 Sierras from a 308 with light loads and their bullets were coming through subsonic, yet their accuracy never dropped off.
That's three totally different 30cal bullets of increasing weight all shot from a long barrel 308. 155 hybrid is a modern design target bullet, the 168 is a old target bullet design created for 300meter ISSF target shooting with a boat tail angle that doesn't like transonic flight, and the 175 is a slightly more modern design (than the 168) with a better boat tail angle that allows for smooth transonic transition.
I'm curious: if you run the numbers on retained energy at target, does that number translate into a observable bullet impact/splash when using that to track your shots in PRS? Example: Using my local temps, air pressure, elevation and JBM ballistics: A 30cal-175SMK at 2650fps goes down to 1048 fps at 1200 and has 427 ft-lbs energy. A 6mm 105 Berger target hybrid at 3000fps goes down to 1351fps at 1200 and has 425 ft-lbs of energy. Would the impacts look similar, or would the size of the 308 make a more noticeable impact seen via scope?
Sorry if I'm intruding on your PRS focused discussion. Just found the discussion interesting.
There was a bit of discussion about bullets "making" it to 1200, the transonic effects, modern bullet design, etc. I'll offer a little food for thought.
1.) A 308 can push a Berger 155 hybrid to be supersonic at 1200 yards, and I personally saw someone do this to win a prone sling match over others shooting 6s/6.5s. 2.) I've also seen people push a 30cal 168gr Sierra matchking as hard as they can trying to make it to 1000 yrds, and it is like the bullet hits a brick wall at around 800-900 yards. It slows down fast, and tumbles like a gymnast as it approaches transonic speeds. If they happen to hit a target, they're likely keyholing and barely making it through the thick cardboard. 3.) I've pulled pits at 1000 for folks shooting 175 Sierras from a 308 with light loads and their bullets were coming through subsonic, yet their accuracy never dropped off.
That's three totally different 30cal bullets of increasing weight all shot from a long barrel 308. 155 hybrid is a modern design target bullet, the 168 is a old target bullet design created for 300meter ISSF target shooting with a boat tail angle that doesn't like transonic flight, and the 175 is a slightly more modern design (than the 168) with a better boat tail angle that allows for smooth transonic transition.
I'm curious: if you run the numbers on retained energy at target, does that number translate into a observable bullet impact/splash when using that to track your shots in PRS? Example: Using my local temps, air pressure, elevation and JBM ballistics: A 30cal-175SMK at 2650fps goes down to 1048 fps at 1200 and has 427 ft-lbs energy. A 6mm 105 Berger target hybrid at 3000fps goes down to 1351fps at 1200 and has 425 ft-lbs of energy. Would the impacts look similar, or would the size of the 308 make a more noticeable impact seen via scope?
Sorry if I'm intruding on your PRS focused discussion. Just found the discussion interesting.
jghoghunter
Gold $$ Contributor
I shot a Winchester model 70 stealth that I bought in 1993 in 308. All I ever shot out of it was 168 smks. For the first few years that I went prairie dog hunting in South Dakota that is what I used for a long range rifle. My shooting partner and I both shooting that rifle had numerous kills on prairie dogs between 1000-1450 yards. We either used a rangefinder, shot back at the truck or a handheld GPS unit to figure the distance.
That is pretty cool. With the right twist rate barrel length and load, I'm sure it can be done. Really smoking a 168 at 2900fps would make for about 72MOA drop. At the normal 168 speeds of 2700, it is around 85MOA. Dropping in on the prairie dogs like mortar fire!
In our high-power matches, we'd occasionally have someone show up to a Palma or Long-Range match with a M14/M1A and 168 sierras. I'd pray I wasn't pulling their target in the pits, and if I was I'd be sure to be tucked up tight along the pit wall with my safety glasses on. There would be bullets coming in at steep angles all over the place with minimal accuracy, key-holing when they hit, or if they struck an upright in the target carrier they'd ricochet into the pit. Not fun! Every third shot it was "Line to pit - mark target 14!" followed by "pit to line - Note that shooter is subsonic, and there was a key-holed cross-fire on target 13." Nowadays with our e-targets, they aren't supersonic and don't register on the system. Those guys finally switched to 175-185gr bullets and have much better success.
I have a 6 creed and 6.5 creed my 26” 6.5 shooting 140 or 147 starts to struggle a little for consistent hits on milk jugs at 1200. My 28” 6mm is really pretty consistent. I believe it all comes down to when the bullet drops below supersonic. My 6 creed is going 3200 FPS and it doesn’t go transonic with 105hyd til a little after 1400 yards. We shoot bigger or faster or higher bc bullets or a combo of them in effect to lengthen the distance we can shoot before going transonic. If wind starts over 5-10 or is shifty it gets very difficult. That’s where bigger calibers help. That’s been my experience anyway.
To the last part of your post, basically does a bigger diameter, heavier bullet make impacts more easily seen, from my somewhat limited experience, yes. A 175 or heavier 308 bullet definitely makes a bigger 'splash' than say a 107 class 6mm, even though the retained energy is nearly identical. I compare it to tossing a marble in the pool, versus tossing a baseball in. They both hit with the same speed, but the bigger ball will make a bigger splash.
It looks that way To my old eyes, anyway.
Edited to add:
Next weekend, God willing, I'm going to a match at BangSteel in Virginia, steel out to 1200 yards. I'll spend some time behind the spotter and also ask a few questions, to see what the consensus among that group of shooters and spotters is. The guys that run BangSteel probably watch more bullets go downrange in a month than most of us will have an opportunity to see in a lifetime.
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daylate
Gold $$ Contributor
i think most of mikes tac-ops .308's are built around the 168 fed gold metal match. He has a-lot of LE and military customers.
This question is answered in an old book (“Modern Rifle”)by a gun writer named Jim Carmichael. There are two quantifications of effectiveness in ballistics, Energy and Inertia. Energy is determined primarily by speed (E = mc^2, where c = speed), while Inertia is determined primarily by weight (Rate of change of momentum, derivative of P = mv, with respect to time). Basically, you have a similar discussion to horsepower vs torque...
On a target the same amount of energy may hit the target, but immediately after impact velocity ceases to contribute. The effect is now based completely on the targets ability to absorb the bullets energy. Newton’s law of Inertia (equal and opposite forces) describes the effect of Mass on the rate of change in velocity. Cutting to the chase, a heavier bullet of the same energy requires more resistance to slow down. On steel, that equates to a bigger splash, more movement of the target, and a louder “ring”.
Side note:
On game, Energy matters most when above the hydrostatic threshold (somewhere between 1800-2000fps, based on most bullet expansion characteristics). The greatest advantage being equally detrimental if extreme penetration is desired, which is where Inertia becomes valuable. Think of the old slow safari cartridges that barely exceed 2,000fps, if at all.
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
Just watched two shooters with 308 Palma rifles, yes, shooting 155s, hang with the scoped magnums at 1,200 yards just a hour ago at Lodi. It can be done, though it takes the right load, and more importantly, the right shooter. But they were supersonic at the target otherwise the ETS would not have picked up the shots.
If I wanted to "Ring steel" at, 1,000 - 1,200 yards, RELIABLY, I would choose, a High BC, 140 - 144 grain Bullet for, a "Blown out", 6.5 X 55 GWI or, AI at, 2,950ish FPS with, "reasonable recoil" and Flat shooting,..
NOT, an old, .308 that,,, drops like, a Rock !
SORRY in advance, if that, offends anyone.
NOT, an old, .308 that,,, drops like, a Rock !
SORRY in advance, if that, offends anyone.
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
You wont offend most 308 shooters, as we know why folks opt for the higher BC, flatter shooting cartridges. Sorry in advance if that offends anyone.
You wont offend most 308 shooters, as we know why folks opt for the higher BC, flatter shooting cartridges. Sorry in advance if that offends anyone.
because we understand math and are smarter?
I use 6XC for prs/nrl type stuff. No trouble at all reaching out to 1450m other than a little difference in wind from my call makes for a miss really easily. A good heavy 6mm target bullet with a decent BC at 2950fps should have no trouble at all getting to 1200m in basically any air conditions.
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