Problems dialing in 75gn ELD-M in .223

[kyotekiller25]

I just shot that combo this morning. Check out the results in the reloading section under 223 wylde/80.5 Bergers.

 

[mgunderson]

For what it's worth, I find tuning at 100 yards to be less than helpful. Stretch out the distance 200 or 300 will provide more clear direction. Use whatever powder charge you like the best and do a seating test at 200 or 300 and you will likely come up with a more readable answer. 223 should have a seating depth window of at least 3 steps of you 0.003 increment.

Your process seems methodical. The extra distance will help. Don't rule out something unexpected. Scope or something loose has bitten us all at some point. Some barrels are tougher than others to tune. They offer more learning.

 

[jelenko]

Update: Still no go.
Shot a ladder with 75 eld seated .015 off lands and N140 (same bullet/same powder as before) from 24.0 to 25.8 increasing by .2 grains just to try to find an upper load. The earlier attempts were as lower velocities. Never hit pressure but also never got anything tighter than .747" on 4 shot groups. Velocities ran from 2882 up to 3098. 25.0 to 25.8 were all compressed loads with the Lapua brass so it took work to get them all seated at .015". I am done with this combination. It is so erratic that I cannot even get two adjacent loads to have close enough average POI to be happy even at 3/4".

Has this rifle/barrel ever shot small groups with any load?

 

[ELR LVR]

Has this rifle/barrel ever shot small groups with any load?

Good point
We need some sort of baseline to begin with.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I tried a bunch of different powders with the 75 ELDMs . Turns out CFE 223 was the ticket. I really didn't use this powder much before these, so it was more or less a last resort and it worked. 27.5 grs is where I ended up. Touch to .005 in didn't make any difference.

Glad to hear that the eldm’s can work at touch and in.

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

Good point
We need some sort of baseline to begin with.

The first 100 rounds was shot with Factory Berger 77 OTM rounds. The factory rounds had very inconsistent seating depths. I sorted the ammo and I shot 5 shot groups with the factory rounds at the following seating depths. Very small changes had significant impact:
Base to Ogive
1.833" .626"
1.837" .422"
1.838" .943"
1.839" .802
1.840" .926

I re-seated all the remaining ammo to 1.836". This resulted in multiple 5-shot groups at 100 ranging from .3's to .6" with similar consistent average POI on paper . It was even reliable at 500 yards with a 5" plate. The factory ES was not great though it was about 74 fps even after re-seating.

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

I shot Sierra 77's today with N140. The results were much better then the 75 eld's. The largest group was .70" and the smallest was .23". I shot a ladder from 23.2 to 24.8 with .2 increments using new Norma brass. Pretty sure I will switch back to my Lapua brass but I gotta get them annealed first. But the results were promising. At 23.4, I had a .59" group and 23.6 was .45 at 2793 fps and es of 22.9. Both had a very similar group center. 24.0 was .23" with 19.5 es. Hopefully I will get some 5 shot verification groups shot next week. I am done for this week. On a side note, Norma .223 brass does not seem to be near as tough as the Lapua brass and showed pressure where the Lapua did not.

 

[ELR LVR]

The first 100 rounds was shot with Factory Berger 77 OTM rounds. The factory rounds had very inconsistent seating depths. I sorted the ammo and I shot 5 shot groups with the factory rounds at the following seating depths. Very small changes had significant impact:
Base to Ogive
1.833" .626"
1.837" .422"
1.838" .943"
1.839" .802
1.840" .926

I re-seated all the remaining ammo to 1.836". This resulted in multiple 5-shot groups at 100 ranging from .3's to .6" with similar consistent average POI on paper . It was even reliable at 500 yards with a 5" plate. The factory ES was not great though it was about 74 fps even after re-seating.

Excellent to see you are following a good method here.
Small changes in Seating depth
Montioring Velocity and accuracy
Plus testing reliability at a longer range for confirmation
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My best suggestion would be to change powders and experiment that way
I have found significant improvements and better consistency in doing so.
One 243 I had actually only liked 1 specific powder and did not cooperate with 5 others.
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An example of this also..... is one 30-06 I was developing a long range load for a friend
I was trying to use up some Re-19 I had
Why not right???? the burn rate is in the ballpark being close to 4831.
So I loaded and tested and seat depthed and ...only got frustrated thinking
Well cant expect much from a bone stock Win 70
He was not opposed to me rebarreling it but we just wanted to see how much accuracy we could get with the factory barrel first, wear it out, then rebarrel it later.
Groups were, meh .....good for hunting but NOT good for 600 yds
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I switched to Re-22, and the heavens immediately opened
1/2 MOA and first rounds hits at 600 suddenly.
I was only fighting myself trying to develop a load using Re-19
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We cannot tell our rifle what it is going to eat and like it you see
(I'd suggest trying:
W-748 1st
CFE-223 2nd
& H380 just because
(AA 2520 and 2700 should be thrown in the mix too to cover your bases of full experimentation)

 

[Jeffrey Curl]

Time for an update...
I have tried N140, 8208 XBR, H4895 along with 75 ELD and Sierra 77's. Nothing worked out to my satisfaction. I had gotten some 80.5 Bergers through a trade but before shooting them, I reached out to the retailer, NSS. NSS called me back the next business morning and we discussed the problem. He contacted Criterion and I received an email from Criterion the same day. The barrel has been shipped back to Criterion dirty so they can look at the fouling and then clean it and inspect it. The service provided by NSS and Criterion has been beyond my expectations. I expect that kind of service with Leupold and Vortex because their warranty service is a big part of their business model but never expected it with Criterion. Standing by...

 

[CF Junkie]

I have had the same problem with the 75 Hornady ELD-Ms. Could never figure out why.
Went back to my records and gathered the data from my Savage 12 FV factory 26-inch 1:9 barrel (actually measured 1:8.75 - probably why it would stabilize the 77 gr bullets.)
That rifle got it's barrel changed in May 2025 to a Shilen Select Match 26-inch 1:7 twist barrel after 9,013 rounds.

75 Hornady ELD-Ms averaged 0.375 at 100 yards.
73 Hornady ELD-Ms averaged 0.263
77 Berger OTMs averaged 0.278
77 Nosler CCs averaged 0.275
77 SMKs averaged 0.277
77 TMKs averaged 0.276

Lighter target bullets shot about the same:
68 Hornady Match averaged 0.683 (apparently the barrel didn't like that bullet shape either.)
69 Nosler CCs averaged .286
69 SMKs averaged 0.270
69 TMKs averaged 0.287
70 Berger VLDs averaged 0.287
70 Nosler RDFs averaged 0.296

Could never figure out why all the other bullets from 69 to 77 grains shot about the same, even with my shooter induced variations.
But the 75 ELD-Ms just wouldn't group as well
The 68 Hornady Match bullets shot even worse.

 

[Rob01]

The 75 ELDs shoot great in my 7 twist 26”. 100 yards is just a baseline and not how they do at long range. Shoot them farther and see how they hold together.

 

[charlie b]

I thought I was the only person having problems with them. But, I attribute it to a 1:9 twist barrel. It stabilizes 77SMK's just fine, but, they are just a bit shorter than the ELDMs.

OTOH I like the 73gn ELDM's. Not quite as consistent as the 73 Bergers but close.

 

[Bill Norris]

Try sorting your bullets base to ogive first then by weight. Sounds like you have a bullet base to ogive variation.

I agree this could definitely be part or all of the issue.

 

[CJ6]

I found a stiff load of CFE 223 with bullets .008 in worked for me.

 

[DLT]

Time for an update...
I have tried N140, 8208 XBR, H4895 along with 75 ELD and Sierra 77's. Nothing worked out to my satisfaction. I had gotten some 80.5 Bergers through a trade but before shooting them, I reached out to the retailer, NSS. NSS called me back the next business morning and we discussed the problem. He contacted Criterion and I received an email from Criterion the same day. The barrel has been shipped back to Criterion dirty so they can look at the fouling and then clean it and inspect it. The service provided by NSS and Criterion has been beyond my expectations. I expect that kind of service with Leupold and Vortex because their warranty service is a big part of their business model but never expected it with Criterion. Standing by...

Any new news ??

 

[ebb]

All my 223 issues went away when I tried 73 grain Berger's.

 

[Steve Donlon]

All my 223 issues went away when I tried 73 grain Berger's.

I never tried the 73 gr. bullet until a little while ago and like them. I can use 24grs. IMR 4895, the same load as the Sierra 69 gr. bullets, and get plenty of velocity and accuracy.

 

[CF Junkie]

I tried the 75 ELD-Ms in the new 1:7 Shilen Select Match 416R 26-inch barrel and shot 4 5-round groups to an average of 0.196 at 100 yards at 2.475 COAL producing a 0.016 jump with Varget powder and Starline brass. Groups were 0.154, 0.207, 0.208 and 0.216.
The group sizes show my obvious concentration problems.
I guess my conclusion would have to be that every barrel is different.
charlie b probably is right - the 1:9 twist might not have liked the longer 75 ELD-M bullets.

 

[DLT]

I tried the 75 ELD-Ms in the new 1:7 Shilen Select Match 416R 26-inch barrel and shot 4 5-round groups to an average of 0.196 at 100 yards at 2.475 COAL producing a 0.016 jump with Varget powder and Starline brass. Groups were 0.154, 0.207, 0.208 and 0.216.
The group sizes show my obvious concentration problems.
I guess my conclusion would have to be that every barrel is different.
charlie b probably is right - the 1:9 twist might not have liked the longer 75 ELD-M bullets.

Sure don’t sound like much of a concentration problem with those group sizes

 

[Longtrain]

…Some guys like the 75 ELD's I never have had luck with them on two different barrels…

I tried the 75 ELDM’s in my 223 and 223 AI, both 1:8’s. Pushed them slow, pushed them fast, loaded them in, loaded them out. They just don’t shoot. Now there was something out there that they were originally set for a 1:7 and it was changed to a 1:8? Whatever my 1:8’s didn’t like them, gatherings not groups.