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Problems dialing in 75gn ELD-M in .223

I shoot the 75g ELDMs with N540 from a 223 Wylde R700 and 28" Bartlein 8 twist. It hasn't been a super easy bullet to get to shoot consistently for me either. Spent a lot of time at the bench and range to get it down to 1/2 MOA. It's the best I can get with the rifle/powder/bullet anyway.

My load is 24.7g N540 at .025" off which is 2.485" COAL. Shoots 3000fps and will typically do 1/4-1/3 MOA at 100 for 3 shots, or 3/8-1/2 MOA for 5 shots, and a hair over 3/4 MOA for 10 shots. ES/SD is trash on the load however.

I'm going to try the Berger 80.5 just to see what it does and if it's any easier or consistent to shoot.

I went with the 75g ELDMs because for the performance and price, nothing really beats them. But that doesn't matter a whole lot if they won't shoot at the end of the day either...

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@Jeffrey Curl, your original post here was an excellent one in that it explained what you were doing in detail. I wanted to respond to you on first read but I dod't have the time to do a proper job of it. When I came back to it @RegionRat had posted and covered what I had planned on commenting on.

I want to expand on a couple of things that are important to understand and will hopefully help you down the road. The first has to do with the Satterlee Test or Ladder. To understand the fallacy of the test you have to understand the nature of statistics from both a testing and probability standpoint. Suffice it to say that when choosing samples from a large lot of ammunition (or loading individual rounds) you are using different components each shot so all of the factors that affect velocity are different and independent in how their different effects combine. This leads to different combinations of effects and this shows up in variations in velocity and is measured by standard deviation of the mean velocity when multiple values are measured and averaged. Let's assume you had a load that you shot a large number ( population) of shots over a chronograph over time that had an average mean velocity of 2730 fps and a standard deviation of 7 fps. If you were to load 100 rounds (sample) using the exact same procedures one example of the data would look like this. Loading just one round is no different than picking one from the 100.Screenshot 2025-05-09 at 9.33.38 AM.png

In this case there are 54 shots greater than the true mean of sample and 46 less than the true mean of the samples. When you pick or load any one round you don't know which one you will get. The end result if you load one round of a charge and another round of another charge it is entirely possible to get one high and the other low so that the velocity between the 2 can be exaggerated as being higher or lower than what addition data would show. In this case the extreme speed is 41 fps.

This is why the Satterlee method is flawed and also why as the chart weight increment decreases the likkehood of flat spots increases.

So what happens if we load more and average the velocities for each load? Typically the thought is 3 or five shot groups. The following shows one possible combinations 5 shot averages of the above data.


The five shot groups are closer to average of the 100 shots but still have a spread of almost 15 fps. In this example of one hundred shots these are 20 of the possible approximately 75,000,000 possible random combinations!

If those 100 shots were analyzes as 20 shot groups one possible result is
Screenshot 2025-05-09 at 12.26.59 PM.png

Notice that each of the groups is much closer to the true sample mean. Again this is only five of the possible results of 20 shot groups out of the possible 535,983,370,403,809,682,970 possible combinations. Notice that the spread is now only about 4 fps.

And so it goes. This is a demonstration of how sample size is important in trying to interpret and analyze specific test data. In and of itself it is not about statistically significant data. That term comes into play when comparing test data between tests and to known standards.

Now that we have data (the test data is velocity) we need to look at how the individual data points vary from the mean. This is measured by the Variance or Standard Deviation of the Mean. In the above example of the 5 shot group the Standard Deviation is shown below
Screenshot 2025-05-09 at 12.56.51 PM.png

and for the 20 shot group below


Screenshot 2025-05-09 at 12.59.24 PM.png
The above examples demonstrate some universal observations about sample size. In the case of mean or average the number of data sample points has an affect on the how accurate the prediction of velocity of the large group can be and how accurate the sample mean represents the much larger population. It also demonstrates that the larger the sample size the greater the extreme spread is likely to be because you increase the likelihood of finding an extreme value.

The second and more important observation is how small sample sizes bias the standard deviations on the low side of the true value and also how more sample points decrease the spread of the sample data variation from the larger sample size and the true population standard deviation.

This example is based on velocity data but it would also apply to group size and mean radius or any other direct measurement of a variable.
 

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Something like 77 SMK with N140 or Varget just to evaluate the gun with something less depth sensitive.
I would add that seating that bullet to approximately 2,800” will likely work ss well any. The bullet was designed around that seating.
 
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Long ago, I'd try every conceivable variation on a load before switching powders (or bullets). It was a great learning experience in my earlier days of precision loading, and a few worn out barrels in the process. Now, I'd load three groups of five rounds for each powder - about 1 1/2 grains apart. I tend to see which powder does best overall (unless one of the groups is very small) combining the aggregate of the groups - THEN I'll do a full ladder on the best powder, find the best wide spot, then adjust seating depth. I used to tune by starting with seating, yet I find this method to work the best most of the time for me.

Fine tuning with powder adjustments, depth adjustments, neck tension, etc. can all help to define the best in a load. But that load might not be good for your rifle to start with. With a nice bolt gun, I make quick changes if I'm nowhere close to what I want. One can fire 500 rounds trying to make a particular powder work and never get what you want. I found that out the hard way more than once. I'd rather try five powders out than shoot that same 75 rounds trying to get 1/2" MOA with a load that is well over that to start.
 
I'll weigh in on personal experience.

I have a 6 Dasher (Bighorn Origin, Brux 1:8, Brux chassis, NF Comp, ARC rings, B&A Comp 2 stage) that used to give me fits. Some days it would shoot ridiculously small. Others, not so much.

I learned that it was gun handling. This action-barrel-chassis combination wanted a very light touch. Once I figured that out, the rifle shoots reliably and consistently in the low threes - high twos and smaller. I did not have a great deal of experience with chassis systems at the time, and it took me a while to understand the different animal.

The load was fine. The rifle system was fine. I was the problem. I wasn't doing anything egregiously wrong. I was just handling the rifle with too firm a hold.

Vary your handling of the rifle and see what happens. I have a .22-.250 AI that stacks the 75 gr. ELD-Ms one on top of another at some impressive velocities. The bullet will shoot.
 
That's a very good point. I almost forgot about the different holds. Some prefer a light hold, while others prefer a more firm. I don't typically hold firm, always more of a light hold as if I was shooting a 22 LR, since that's about what all my rifles recoil like.

I did notice sighting in a friend's AR a few months back, it definitely preferred a firm hold versus a light hold. It shot twice as good at 100 yards with just how it was held.
 
When I had to learn about small arms testing, I was coming from a heavy weapon background where there was no human touching the guns.

The first big lesson, is that because the gun is already recoiling before the bullet exits the barrel, what the human does to the gun makes a difference.

Only very heavy guns with good mass balance can come close to being care-free in terms of how they are handled. The lighter the gun, the more it matters who is driving it and how it is supported.
 
That's a very good point. I almost forgot about the different holds. Some prefer a light hold, while others prefer a more firm. I don't typically hold firm, always more of a light hold as if I was shooting a 22 LR, since that's about what all my rifles recoil like.

I did notice sighting in a friend's AR a few months back, it definitely preferred a firm hold versus a light hold. It shot twice as good at 100 yards with just how it was held.
The handling question seems to be more important with chassis systems. That Dasher/Brux rifle I mentioned wants very little interaction with the shooter. I have another rifle with an MDT ACC Elite chassis that likes a moderate hold and my experience with ARs mirrors yours - a firm hold for best results.
 
Long ago, I'd try every conceivable variation on a load before switching powders (or bullets). It was a great learning experience in my earlier days of precision loading, and a few worn out barrels in the process. Now, I'd load three groups of five rounds for each powder - about 1 1/2 grains apart. I tend to see which powder does best overall (unless one of the groups is very small) combining the aggregate of the groups - THEN I'll do a full ladder on the best powder, find the best wide spot, then adjust seating depth. I used to tune by starting with seating, yet I find this method to work the best most of the time for me.

Fine tuning with powder adjustments, depth adjustments, neck tension, etc. can all help to define the best in a load. But that load might not be good for your rifle to start with. With a nice bolt gun, I make quick changes if I'm nowhere close to what I want. One can fire 500 rounds trying to make a particular powder work and never get what you want. I found that out the hard way more than once. I'd rather try five powders out than shoot that same 75 rounds trying to get 1/2" MOA with a load that is well over that to start.
I like the idea of trying different powders. I think you can use a powder like 4064 as a baseline or benchmark to see if it's the powder or the rifle or you. It seems some powders just shoot well but are to slow for most people that want more velocity. Five powders is even better if you can do it.
 
When I had to learn about small arms testing, I was coming from a heavy weapon background where there was no human touching the guns.

The first big lesson, is that because the gun is already recoiling before the bullet exits the barrel, what the human does to the gun makes a difference.

Only very heavy guns with good mass balance can come close to being care-free in terms of how they are handled. The lighter the gun, the more it matters who is driving it and how it is supported.
Well said and very true!
 
I'll weigh in on personal experience.

I have a 6 Dasher (Bighorn Origin, Brux 1:8, Brux chassis, NF Comp, ARC rings, B&A Comp 2 stage) that used to give me fits. Some days it would shoot ridiculously small. Others, not so much.

I learned that it was gun handling. This action-barrel-chassis combination wanted a very light touch. Once I figured that out, the rifle shoots reliably and consistently in the low threes - high twos and smaller. I did not have a great deal of experience with chassis systems at the time, and it took me a while to understand the different animal.

The load was fine. The rifle system was fine. I was the problem. I wasn't doing anything egregiously wrong. I was just handling the rifle with too firm a hold.

Vary your handling of the rifle and see what happens. I have a .22-.250 AI that stacks the 75 gr. ELD-Ms one on top of another at some impressive velocities. The bullet will shoot.
Very true. I learned this sitting behind a 10/22. Any small change was observed on target. Many rounds down range will show you what you need to do.
 
I'll weigh in on personal experience.

I have a 6 Dasher (Bighorn Origin, Brux 1:8, Brux chassis, NF Comp, ARC rings, B&A Comp 2 stage) that used to give me fits. Some days it would shoot ridiculously small. Others, not so much.

I learned that it was gun handling. This action-barrel-chassis combination wanted a very light touch. Once I figured that out, the rifle shoots reliably and consistently in the low threes - high twos and smaller. I did not have a great deal of experience with chassis systems at the time, and it took me a while to understand the different animal.

The load was fine. The rifle system was fine. I was the problem. I wasn't doing anything egregiously wrong. I was just handling the rifle with too firm a hold.

Vary your handling of the rifle and see what happens. I have a .22-.250 AI that stacks the 75 gr. ELD-Ms one on top of another at some impressive velocities. The bullet will shoot.
You are so right. Getting that "natural point of aim" and smooth "straight-to-the-rear" trigger pull technique is huge. New shooters tend to "steer" the rear of the stock to bring the cross hairs onto the target by more pressure to the left or right of the stock. It is easy to sometimes dismiss heavier target rifles as not being negatively subjected to these influences. I know that I personally have to run a mental checklist every time I get behind the trigger for a shot, always being cognizant of whether I have natural aim, etc. It is easy to accidently apply a bit of unwanted (or different amount of) pressure to the stock, especially near the end of a string, when time is running out on the clock or if one repositions a hold during a string. In field hunting and PRS positions, getting that natural point of aim can be much more difficult than shooting, say, off a toggle rest and free-recoil shooting.
 
I tried a bunch of different powders with the 75 ELDMs . Turns out CFE 223 was the ticket. I really didn't use this powder much before these, so it was more or less a last resort and it worked. 27.5 grs is where I ended up. Touch to .005 in didn't make any difference.
 
Update: Still no go.
Shot a ladder with 75 eld seated .015 off lands and N140 (same bullet/same powder as before) from 24.0 to 25.8 increasing by .2 grains just to try to find an upper load. The earlier attempts were as lower velocities. Never hit pressure but also never got anything tighter than .747" on 4 shot groups. Velocities ran from 2882 up to 3098. 25.0 to 25.8 were all compressed loads with the Lapua brass so it took work to get them all seated at .015". I am done with this combination. It is so erratic that I cannot even get two adjacent loads to have close enough average POI to be happy even at 3/4".
 
I am staying with the N140 for one more test just because I have 8 lbs of it and it is ridiculous to mail order 1 lb of something else for testing. This next ladder I am going to use my 77 gn Sierra MK that I load for my AR that is actually more precise and accurate then this bolt action with 75 eld's. It is currently the easiest change to make since I already have them. If this does not work out (and even if it does) I will order a box of Berger hybrids to test. I may also try my ball powder that already I load with my AR. Standby to standby.
 
I was going to make same suggestion
Try some Bergers
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Fighting something that isn't working very well... to me is wasted time, components etc.
I am retired and live 7 minutes from the range. I would not mind it if I was enjoying it and NOT being frustrated..... but ugh!!!
 
I shoot the 75g ELDMs with N540 from a 223 Wylde R700 and 28" Bartlein 8 twist. It hasn't been a super easy bullet to get to shoot consistently for me either. Spent a lot of time at the bench and range to get it down to 1/2 MOA. It's the best I can get with the rifle/powder/bullet anyway.

My load is 24.7g N540 at .025" off which is 2.485" COAL. Shoots 3000fps and will typically do 1/4-1/3 MOA at 100 for 3 shots, or 3/8-1/2 MOA for 5 shots, and a hair over 3/4 MOA for 10 shots. ES/SD is trash on the load however.

I'm going to try the Berger 80.5 just to see what it does and if it's any easier or consistent to shoot.

I went with the 75g ELDMs because for the performance and price, nothing really beats them. But that doesn't matter a whole lot if they won't shoot at the end of the day either...

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Let me know how the 80.5's work out for you unless I beat you to it. I am trying 77 gn Sierra's next just because I already have them for my AR.
 

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