Problem sizing 22BR

[RePete]

Update,,,,,Forster sent a new set of dies that arrived Saturday.
I was able to get some loads made up but the new dies are no different than the old ones. After running a case through the FL die it still will not fit in either seater die. I have two sets of brand new dies and no combination will allow the neck to fit in the seater die.
Anyway,,,,I neck turned .002 off of 25rnds and was able to get them to fit the seater die, so I loaded them up with 27gr of Benchmark behind some Hornady 52hp's and headed to the Range.
I shot 10rnds of shoot and clean and got the scope dialed in. I shot five 3 shot groups cleaning between each group. The results were not so great but most of the groups had 2 out of three touching.
Here's the interesting part. I got the load from Sierra's book which is well below the max they list. It's also below Hodgen's starting load. Actually Hodgen's starting load is close to Sierra's max. That's typical with load data from different sources though so I won't beat that dead horse.
What is of concern to me is that I was getting very hard bolt lift, and it was the worst after the 3rd shot in the groups. In other words, as things heated up.
When I got home I cleaned up the cases and tryed to get some of the third shot cases to chamber. They wouldn't, so I resized moving the die down a little at a time untill they would fit.
So now my dilema is if the loads were to hot or do I have a head-space problem??
Any ideas or load suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Repete

Oh Yea,,,,,,,The primer's,Rem 7.5's) weren't flattened at all, but did show a little metal flowing away from the firing pin.

 

[Preacher]

repete-
Can you put a bullet back into a fired case that wasnt neck turned, with no resistance ?
Smoke up one or more of those cases and see where it's hitting when you put it back into the chamber while your at it.....
What Mikie can't figure out I will........

 

[RePete]

Preacher,,,,,,,,,Glad you chimed in. I can obviously use all of the help I can get.
I already Resized the 25 fired cases so I'll have to wait untill Thursday so I can shoot them again. When I do I'll do the two tests you asked about and report back to ya.
I'm pretty sure the cases were stopping at the shoulder, but I'll definatly check. I'll try to post a pic or two so you guys can get a visual.

I still can't figure out why after sizing with Forsters FL die I can't get a case to fit in the seater die. It's like two different companies made the dies. ??????????

Thanks again to you and Mikie for the help.

 

[brfun]

repete-
Preacher may be onto something hear considering the problems you are having and have had with everything. I know form what you have said what the reamer print says but have you checked or know for sure what the neck diameter in your chamber is? And have at least a minimal amount of clearance on your loaded round. To tight could easly acount for high presure or even worse. You may have all ready figured this out just trying to help and make sure you don't have a tighter neck than you think.
I know every barrel and chamber are different and it doesn't help that I still run molly but I don't think 27gr. of benchmark would give you that high of pressure. mine is a Hart barrel and with 52 Berger's moiled mine likes 29.7grs and that is not a max load in mine. I can usually neck size only for at least five firings before one or two start to chamber hard.
Brian

 

[NorCalMikie]

Preacher and Brian:
Sounds to like he's getting the run around with his dies. He's fighting 2 different problems. A wrong seater die and high pressure in his ammo. Preacher, you clued me in about the high pressure with the 22 BR ammo. He needs to back down a little on his load and get his dies squared away??
He didn't want to turn the necks on his brass but that's what he ended up doing. Turning neck is OK if that's what you want to do.
The folks that made his dies arn't getting him what he needs.
Maybe I'am all wet but I keep going back to the "wrong" size seater die?? Once he gets one problem solved, it will be easier to get the other fixed. Just my opinion. Someone correct me if I'am wrong.

 

[brfun]

NorCalMikie
you could be right about fighting a couple of problems and the dies. but it still makes me wonder what the true neck diameter of the chamber is. i realize he doesn't want to turn necks but if it is a tighter neck than he ordered or was told he has unfortunately there may not any option but to turn. i am not saying that is his problem just a thought.
the hard extraction does suggest high pressure i just have my doubts about 27grs of benchmark doing it with out an under laying problem of some sort like not enough neck clearance. but i to could very easily be wrong and i sure would not go any higher until the exact problem is figured out. in fact like you suggested back it down a little.
like i said earlier no two rifles are alike but in my load development i want as high as 31.5grs of benchmark with a couple different 52gr bullets. that is why i find it odd that 4.5grs less would cause a pressure problem even with me using molly. not that it cant just seem a little much to me.
i am very curious what the problem or problems end up being.
i take it you also had some pressure problems was it with benchmark as well? i ask as i just bought 16# of a new lot and haven't re worked the load with it yet and you got me to wondering and thinking maybe i should start alot lower than i was going to if there could possibly be a big difference between lots.
Brian

 

[NorCalMikie]

I think the thing that "rally" gets me is the fact that the 22 BR is "so easy" to work with. Charlie is beating his head against the wall and not getting anywhere.
If a fired case will go back in the chamber, he's OK. If the case fits snug, he needs to bump the shoulder a little till it fits. That's the easy part.
Now for the seating problem.
If the fired brass won't fit in his seater die, he's got the wrong seater?? That's what I keep seeing. If he has to turn the necks to get them to go into the seater, that's where his problem is??

lynn: You've got the right idea about cutting the neck off to see what the problem is with his brass. It might come back to a "tight neck" chamber?? And the reamer in a "red sock" idea is good. Maybe sell it in a yard sale?

brian: I was using AA 2230 and the burn rate was too fast for the load I was trying so I tried AA 2460 and things got "much' better.
I was able to develop a load with the AA 2230. I'am still working on loads.

We sound like "experts" but we've just "been there, done that".
I'am real curious to see the final outcome of this situation.
I'am even tempted to send him my seater die so he can load up some ammo and go shooting. That wouldn't fix his problem but at least he could see how easy it is to load his ammo.

 

[RePete]

lynn,,,,,,,,,,I'm just about positive that the neck isn't to tight and this is why.
I have two FL sizer dies. The first one Forster honed for the 254 neck print. After sizing with this die the necks are 252 and will fit in my chamber but not in either of the two identical neck dies. the second FL die forster sent me has not been touched and after sizing a case in it the neck is 250,and chambers easily but still won't fit in either seater die.
I then neck turned tha cases to 248 and they fit in both seater dies and naturally will chamber easily. To sum it up,, all three neck sizes fit the chamber,.252, .250, and .248.).
You and everyone else are right about eating this Cow one bite at a time, and I think I have done that as far as neck dia. goes. My humble opinion is that the seater dies are screwed up. I have never seen any set of dies that after running a case through the sizer die it wouldn't fit in the seater die.
I'm reaching here but,, do you suppose that the Lapua brass is to thick for Forster's tolerances???

brfun,,,,,,,,I agree with you about the charge weight not being to hot. Like I said earlier "27gr is in the middle of Sierra's data and below Hodgen'starting load with 52gr bullets."

I will go to the range on Thursday and report back, as well as taking some measurments and smoking a couple of cases. I'm a crappy photographer but I'll tryt to get a pic of the smoked cases after chambering.
Thanks again to everyone.

Oh Yea,,,,The red sock is a good idea for the reamer, although I was thinking about a different place for them to put it.

 

[RePete]

lynn,,,,,,,,You sure are right about me becoming quite intiment with the 22BR.
I have talked with Forsters tech's a couple of times.
First to discuss them reaming the FL die to the reamer print, and and then after running into the problem with the seater die. They sent me a second brand new unaltered set and there is no difference in the Seater dies.
They did offer to ream the first seater die to match the FL die that they honed or to just send me a new set. I opted for the new set.
Bottom line is,,,, This is a Gopher gun. I want to be able to run 6BR brass through a 22BR die and then seat a bullet and go shoot rodents with some accuracy just like everyone else does. The 22BR info on this web site as well as many people I've talked to say I should be able to do just that. So far everything BUT that has happened.
I'm not a reloading expert by a long shot, but I'm just about posative that you should be able to put a case that has been sized in a seater die that came in the same frikin box.

One quick update since I posted about an hour ago.
I really like Forster dies but have found their tolerances to be pretty tight in the past.,Forster's tech said the same thing.)so I ordered a set of Redding 22BR dies to see if they will solve my problem.
If that doesn't work I'll send the seater die to Forster along with the FL die and some cases and have them hone the seater like they offered.

I'm going to step away from this for a day or so and regroup before I pound my head on the wall again.
Thanks again to everyone.

 

[NorCalMikie]

lynn: And one other thing he could do is to send a couple of fired cases to Forster and have them hone a seater to fit the brass but if he's turned the necks he'll be off a little??

 

[Elwood]

I have had what I think are the same problems with my .22BR and Forester seating dies.
My chamber is 252 no turn but the brass has to be trimmed to 1.530 which is about 30 thou less than the 6BR?
I can seat 52 grain Amax heads just, but there's slight tightness, I then tried 55 grain Noslers and couldn't seat them at all, I actually crushed two cases, and when I did finally manage to seat one you could see where the head stopped in the neck, I took several loaded heads back out to see what they looked like, I was some what shocked!see image http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o23/elwood_album/PICT0052.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o23/elwood_album/PICT0051.jpg

I ended up having to run a inside neck mandral to exand the necks and then neck turn my brass down to .247 and then run a 246/245 neck bushing over it to get some tension.
I too was under the impression that forming brass for the 22BR was easy, it wasn't for me, but it sure was a big learning curve and the results were worth the headache
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o23/elwood_album/PICT0031.jpg


I'm told that lapua brass has thicker neck walls than most brass and this is the problem, I do now wonder if it's actually a problem with Forester and whether I should try a Redding seater die.

 

[expiper]

Elwood and others...I have found the "true" no turn nk size to be more like .254"!!...new Lapua are aprox .251 loaded...and the chamber shuld be aprox 1.575-1.580 long....the brass is 1.555 rite outa the box and 1.565 formed...so if you are not wanting to trim immediately you need the room in chmber length...1.575 is optimum for me....lots of "gunsmiths" and even bbl. mfgs. have all kinds of reamers and most of em are WRONG...there is a plague of mismatch chambers and reamers and sizing dies out there ....Lynn is right...dont buy any more wrong stuff...sort out the problem by taking accurate measurements on what you really have ...and then sorth thru the dies etc and get a combo that will work with Redding dies....Kiff makes the resize reamers for Redding and if you get/use the reamer he reccomends there are very few problems!!!!...these factories that turn out chambers that are not what we want or need are ruining the simplicity of the 22 BR... I have shot them since the 70's and have found that the manufactures usually tell you the wrong thing and give an answer like ...we have used this reamer for yrs...and that is the truth ...and they have been making these problems for yrs. also!!!!,,,If the gunsmith or factory wont send you a reamer print showing exactly what they have....dont use their services....the frustration is not worth it...the best is get your own reamer from Kiff and get it rite the first time...it is cheaper and you wont spend hundreds in alka-seltzer and gasoline trying to find the right combo.....Roger

 

[RePete]

A short update for all of the kind folks that have been trying to help me figure out this mess.
I haven't recieved the Redding dies yet so I loaded up the same 25 rounds that I first fired in this piece of crap.
Here's a pic of the brass after the second firing.
Hopefully you can see the carbon building up at the web and the last case which shows how it's flowing past the case.
This is the brass that was neck turned to fit the sizing die NOT the chamber.
Someone asked if I could put a bullet in a fired case. NO
Someone else asked if I could chamber a fired case. NO
I've tried to make this post 3 times and keep getting shut down so I'm keeping it brief, but I thought I owed the folks that are trying to help me an update.
It will probably shoot as the one group shows but that was the only one that was decent. All of the others were all over the place.

Later

 

[brfun]

RePete
one of the other folks mentioned something that makes a lot of sense to address one thing at a time in this mess. taking the die problem out of the picture for a moment have you been able to confirm the neck diameter of your chamber and chamber length?
Brian

 

[billmo]

Repete, I have just read all the way back thru your sequence of events here. This may sound like a cop-out but I think if I were you I would simply start from scratch with a new barrel with a print from Dave Kiff for the chamber. This is simply plaqueing you from one end of the spectrum to the other and handloading and shooting is supposed to be fun man. I don't think your chamber is right and there may not be a fix for it. So, do yourself a favor and take that piece of crap off of your gun and throw it as far as you can send it. Order yourself a barrel from ANOTHER vendor and a Kiff drawing/reamer so that hopefully in the near future you will be able to load and shoot in some peace. It just appears that you are going thru too much BS and enough is enough. You know? Bill

 

[billmo]

Lynn, That is a very generous offer. I tell you if I had dies for that caliber that I thought would work for him I would send them to him also. I mean this is getting to be rediculous and he has to be aggrevated to ruin. I would have already thrown that stuff away long time ago and started over. Maybe your dies will help him out but I don't have any confidence in that chamber. Bill

 

[billmo]

Yea, the target looked good. I just like you have put myself in his place while reading thru all of this mess and I really feel sorry for him. I can say that he has a lot more patience than myself. I would have done and quit on that stuff long time ago. You are a stand up guy to offer your dies and brass and certainly he will appreciate it. Bill

 

[Preacher]

repete- if you can not put a bullet back in a fired case with no resistance your necks are to tight....
Your getting that color on the cases because your not sealing the chamber or a lower powered load is causing it.....
If you can't figure it out, pull the barrel and send it to me if you think thats the problem, and I'll fix it.

 

[RePete]

Hey guys,,,,,,,,,Thanks again for all of the help and your kind offers to help.

Lynn,,,,,, Let me see if the Redding FL die set works before I try your stuff. That's a very generous offer but I hate borrowing things.

Preacher,,,,, I very well may have to have you or someone re chamber it. I appreciate your offer but I would only do it If you let me pay you.

billmo,,,,, I'm starting to fear that you are right about the chamber. There's a very good possibility that Pac-Nor screwed things up when they re-chambered it from Remington 22BR to Norma 22BR. I don't like to publicly bad mouth any company, but I'll just say that I don't plan to use them for any more chambering work.

There's no body around here that I can get to do a chamber casting for me but I did order one of Sinclair's case length measuring gadgets. I'm pretty sure that's not the problem because I trimmed 5 thou off the original cases before reloading just to make sure, but a fellow should have one on hand anyway.

I'll see what happens with the Redding dies and let you all know. I'll start with some brand new brass. What the hell, Lapua brass doesn't cost much. grrr

I better go now. I'm starting to peculate.
Thanks again for all the help and support.
Repete

 

[bglenn]

repete
I have a suggestion that I think will answer a few questions. Take a fired case and see how hard it is to seat the bullet. If you can't seat with the seating die put a piece of metal over the opening in the seating die, line the bullet up and seat to the approx. depth. If it takes some force with the press to seat the bullet, it is a tight neck,I think). measure the outside of the neck of a fired case and the neck of the case you seated the bullet in, if the case with the bullet in the neck is bigger than the fired only case then you have a tight neck. If the above is the situation then trim .002 more from a couple of cases and try them. If this works then a least you will know what is your problem.
Hope this helps.

bglenn