Primers for 223 ?
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
Bolt action?
BR-4, #41, and #450 are all essentially Magnum thick cup primers. 400 are non-Magnum but thick cup primers. Sometime BR-4 are more accurate but sometimes they aren’t. You have to test and see.
With RL15 I would think a regular primer would suffice, but test them all.
BR-4, #41, and #450 are all essentially Magnum thick cup primers. 400 are non-Magnum but thick cup primers. Sometime BR-4 are more accurate but sometimes they aren’t. You have to test and see.
With RL15 I would think a regular primer would suffice, but test them all.
My primer of choice for my 90 VLD load is federal 205Ms. My suggestion is to try several as the last step in your load development process. They do make a difference
jepp2
Gold $$ Contributor
I admit I haven't measured them, but here is the word I go by:
"Small Rifle Standard
CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
CCI BR4 - match primer with a thicker .025" cup.
Federal 205 - Mil-Spec cup thickness according to Federal - okay for 5.56mm. .0225" cup thickness.
Federal 205M - same as the 205 but the match version.
Magtech PR-SR - .025" cup thickness (not much feedback yet on this new primer as to AR15 suitability but with the same cup thickness as the Rem 7 1/2 it looks good so far)
Remington 6 ½ - thin .020" cup, intended for older, lower pressure rounds Remington says do not use for the .223 Rem or other similar pressure rounds. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Lyman & Nosler classify this primer as a Standard. Remington says the compound is the same as the 6 1/2 but with a thicker .025" cup.
RWS 4033
Winchester WSR - some piercing issues noted when changed from silver to brass cup. Cup thickness is a bit thinner at .021". Most say they are good to go for the AR15 despite that, probably because of the hardness of the cup. Some feel they are less resistant to higher pressures.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle SR #KVB-223 - soft, sensitive copper cup, not recommended for AR15/military rifle use or high pressure rounds. "
Posted here: http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
As per Jepp's and riflewoman's posts above.
There are also two other Russian models (made by Murom and sold under this brand name in Europe and the UK but as either 'Wolf' or 'Tula' in the US):
SR Magnum (KVB-5,56M with pellet same as the standard 'soft' cup KVB-223 but 0.025" thick cup)
A new Russian model with slightly 'hotter' compound and with the tougher cup. I can't quote the KVB p/n but its says 'Small Rifle 223 Rem' on the 100 ct sleeve.
http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?cat=58
This was reportedly introduced at the request of American XTC shooters who had found the popular KVB-5,56M had trouble igniting some newer ball type powders, which I surmise means Hodgdon CFE223. (I found this powder unsuitable for loading in 308 Win small primer 'Palma' brass and it apparently needs regular LR primed cases in this cartridge.)
There is also the Brazilian CBC Magtech 7 1/2 same as that used in Magtech's 223 and M855 5.56 ammunition. (7 1/2 is the industry standard name for SR Magnum where a numerical description is used, 6 1/2 being thin cup non-magnum.)
Note too that the recent Russian Murom standard model thin cup KVB-223 is no longer a deep copper colour but has the brass look of the WSR, Rem 7 1/2BR, Murom Small Rifle 223 Rem etc at least for those supplies we've received in the UK. Irrespective of appearance, users report it is as soft as the older copper models.
There are also two other Russian models (made by Murom and sold under this brand name in Europe and the UK but as either 'Wolf' or 'Tula' in the US):
SR Magnum (KVB-5,56M with pellet same as the standard 'soft' cup KVB-223 but 0.025" thick cup)
A new Russian model with slightly 'hotter' compound and with the tougher cup. I can't quote the KVB p/n but its says 'Small Rifle 223 Rem' on the 100 ct sleeve.
http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?cat=58
This was reportedly introduced at the request of American XTC shooters who had found the popular KVB-5,56M had trouble igniting some newer ball type powders, which I surmise means Hodgdon CFE223. (I found this powder unsuitable for loading in 308 Win small primer 'Palma' brass and it apparently needs regular LR primed cases in this cartridge.)
There is also the Brazilian CBC Magtech 7 1/2 same as that used in Magtech's 223 and M855 5.56 ammunition. (7 1/2 is the industry standard name for SR Magnum where a numerical description is used, 6 1/2 being thin cup non-magnum.)
Note too that the recent Russian Murom standard model thin cup KVB-223 is no longer a deep copper colour but has the brass look of the WSR, Rem 7 1/2BR, Murom Small Rifle 223 Rem etc at least for those supplies we've received in the UK. Irrespective of appearance, users report it is as soft as the older copper models.
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably.
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D-4297
Gold $$ Contributor
Tried the CCi's for "F" and wasn't real fond of them . Went with the Rem BR 71/2 and they've worked good for me . But as Riflewoman and others have said , you almost have to test them all to find out what your load , and rifle like . Yup.....down the rabbit-hole again .
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
The Rem 7 1/2 primers have no problems with ball powders or RL-15.
There are some combinations of low brisance primers and ball powders that are unreliable and cause hang-fires, but a Rem 7 1/2 with RL-15 isn't a bad combination at all.
Some powders like H335 are unreliable with Tula primers for example, but the Rem 7 1/2, CCI 450, and 41 are all recommended for these ball powders to avoid that issue.
Your post mentioned benchrest... If you are not playing with ball powders and cold weather, you will be best to try them all anyway to see which ones your rig and recipe likes.
There are some combinations of low brisance primers and ball powders that are unreliable and cause hang-fires, but a Rem 7 1/2 with RL-15 isn't a bad combination at all.
Some powders like H335 are unreliable with Tula primers for example, but the Rem 7 1/2, CCI 450, and 41 are all recommended for these ball powders to avoid that issue.
Your post mentioned benchrest... If you are not playing with ball powders and cold weather, you will be best to try them all anyway to see which ones your rig and recipe likes.
The following is a portion of an email exchange with CCI:
Small rifle primers
#41......................................Mil. Spec. primer, thick cup, magnum primer charge, angle of anvil change.
BR4.....................................thick cup, standard anvil and standard priming mix held to a tighter tolerance.
Justin M./Technical Service Rep.
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer
(800)379-1732
The CCI BR4 primer is a standard and not magnum primer mix. The CCI 450 and CCI #41 both use a magnum primer mix. In addition to a thicker cup the CCI #41 also uses a different angle on the anvil which is how the CCI #41 acheives less sensitivity. The best source of CCI primer information is either a quick phone call to CCI or shoot them an email.
As to any advantage to using a magnum primer with Reloader 15? Reloader 15 is an extruded type powder so really a magnum primer in 223 Remington loading isn't necessary. While the CCI BR4 primers should work well I have also shot groups just as tight with CCI 400 standard small rifle primers. I suggest you see which primer delivers the best results / accuracy in your specific rifle and run with it. The Remington 7 1/2 is another primer I like in 223 Remington.
Also for what it may or may not be worth the below images were a result of using CCI 400, CCI 450, CCI BR4 and CCI #41 primers. The load was 26.1 grains of H335 powder below a Sierra 53 grain HP Match #1400 bullet. The cases were all loaded with each charge weighed. The target was at 100 yards using a Remington 700 bolt gun.
Worth noting is the velocity chart in the second image and while the CCI #41 afforded the best group that may not be true as I was close to my sky screen edge when I shot the target so was more concerned with just getting each 10 shot group over the chronograph than trying for group size. Anyway, this is why you really want to see what works best in your rifle with any given powder.
Ron
Small rifle primers
#41......................................Mil. Spec. primer, thick cup, magnum primer charge, angle of anvil change.
BR4.....................................thick cup, standard anvil and standard priming mix held to a tighter tolerance.
Justin M./Technical Service Rep.
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer
(800)379-1732
The CCI BR4 primer is a standard and not magnum primer mix. The CCI 450 and CCI #41 both use a magnum primer mix. In addition to a thicker cup the CCI #41 also uses a different angle on the anvil which is how the CCI #41 acheives less sensitivity. The best source of CCI primer information is either a quick phone call to CCI or shoot them an email.
As to any advantage to using a magnum primer with Reloader 15? Reloader 15 is an extruded type powder so really a magnum primer in 223 Remington loading isn't necessary. While the CCI BR4 primers should work well I have also shot groups just as tight with CCI 400 standard small rifle primers. I suggest you see which primer delivers the best results / accuracy in your specific rifle and run with it. The Remington 7 1/2 is another primer I like in 223 Remington.
Also for what it may or may not be worth the below images were a result of using CCI 400, CCI 450, CCI BR4 and CCI #41 primers. The load was 26.1 grains of H335 powder below a Sierra 53 grain HP Match #1400 bullet. The cases were all loaded with each charge weighed. The target was at 100 yards using a Remington 700 bolt gun.
Worth noting is the velocity chart in the second image and while the CCI #41 afforded the best group that may not be true as I was close to my sky screen edge when I shot the target so was more concerned with just getting each 10 shot group over the chronograph than trying for group size. Anyway, this is why you really want to see what works best in your rifle with any given powder.
Ron
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Of course you should test them, as with EVERYTHING ELSE in reloading.
But there is nothing wrong with any available primers. That one doesn't shoot well in your gun means little more than 'it's an abstract'..
An attribute in play here is your gun's unique striking of primers. If you really want a primer you happen to choose, you could adjust it's striking for best local results. You might even gain more here than anything else you've done.
If too complicated, then you should just swap em & see. But keep in mind that you'll need to watch & normalize MV with different primers to identify actual detriment/improvement. This, because a swap can be big enough to take you in or out of a powder node(2 big changes at once).
But there is nothing wrong with any available primers. That one doesn't shoot well in your gun means little more than 'it's an abstract'..
An attribute in play here is your gun's unique striking of primers. If you really want a primer you happen to choose, you could adjust it's striking for best local results. You might even gain more here than anything else you've done.
If too complicated, then you should just swap em & see. But keep in mind that you'll need to watch & normalize MV with different primers to identify actual detriment/improvement. This, because a swap can be big enough to take you in or out of a powder node(2 big changes at once).
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
I was truly surprised by my testing of primers in 223. I shoot 80VLD with a pretty stout load of Varget. After years of using 205 GMM primers, I wanted to switch to the CCI in order to have a harder cup but didn't want to adversely affect what had been a very good load. Tested with same lots of powder, bullet and brass. I loaded same loads (all measured on A&D scale) with my usual FGMM, CCI450 and CCI400. All were ten shots over chronological (magneto speed V3). The GMM came in 2nd, while the CCI450 came in a far behind last place. The lowest SD and best velocity came from the CCI400.
I would suspect that your test might even be different from mine. In other words, try them all and then decide which way is best.
I would suspect that your test might even be different from mine. In other words, try them all and then decide which way is best.
How did the groups look ?
Yeah, years ago the price difference was not that great. Today depending on where one shops I see the following numbers.
CCI 400 Small Rifle $33.00 per thousand.
CCI 450 Small Rifle Magnum $41.00 per thousand.
CCI BR4 Small Rifle Bench Rest $60.00 per thousand.
CCI #41 Small Rifle Military Primers $50.00 per thousand.
Pretty big jump between the Standard 400 or the 450 Magnum primers let alone the BR primers.
The Remington 7 1/2 Small Rifle BR primers come in around $32.00 per thousand.
Ron
Couple of weeks ago I walked into the local BassPro and picked up a box of 1000 Federal 205M's for $47.95.
Expensive, but not as much as the BR-4's, and since haz mat fees apply when ordering online, it was the cheapest option to get the 205M's without ordering tens of thousands online to get free hazmat.
Expensive, but not as much as the BR-4's, and since haz mat fees apply when ordering online, it was the cheapest option to get the 205M's without ordering tens of thousands online to get free hazmat.
shoot4fun
Gold $$ Contributor
It's a rifle I shoot for matches only. One match 1/2MOA targets 300-600 and other 1 MOA targets 600,800,900 & 1,000.
I would not have made the change, regardless of SD, if the accuracy had not improved as well.
Isn't that the end game of all this?
Not a magnum primer but the cups are as thick as CCI magnum primers.... Useful in situations like using an automatic to prevent slam fires.... Testing is the only way to know what works best in your rifle....
This wannabe apppreciates all of the above.
Good discussion.
Thanks!
Good discussion.
Thanks!
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