Primer Weight

[savageshooter86]

Taboo topic. I’ve heard some top people do it. But never really any posts saying they do. But hey. Who knows. Definitely couldn’t hurt sorting by weight if you have the time and feel like it would help downrange. Then I say go for it

 

[dgeesaman]

The smaller the effect, the more you're going to have to shoot to reliably see it. I think it's safe to say that primer sorting will have a very small effect - probably too small to test.

Agreed I think sorting primers falls into the category of either:
- only helps to cull possibly bad pieces
- may have an immeasurably small effect

And not the category of: it helps enough to be visible in testing.

I think many long range competitors employ every sorting practice they think* could help and expend their energy doing those things and don’t worry about trying to experimentally confirm the difference made by any one of those practices.

* what a shooter thinks might gain them a competitive advantage is heavily biased by all sorts of things.

 

[RegionRat]

For the insomniacs....
I hear Scotch works too...

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/weighing-primers-testing-results-anyone-doing-it.3954499/

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/t...-spread-is-acceptable-in-competition.3960990/

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/measuring-primers.3968504/#post-37392928

 

[Doom]

With all do respect, I do my own testing and not rely on u tube for direction or results.

The target is king…

As it should be.

 

[rwj]

The same goes for weight sorting brass, neck turning multiple times, weighing powder to the kernel and making sure all shoulders are bumped to 1/2 a thousandth consistency. No sense in any of you doing all of that! See you at the next match.

Do you polish bullets using Flitz too? Hard to argue with the match results you’ve had lately!

 

[Fuj]

Do you polish bullets using Flitz too? Hard to argue with the match results you’ve had lately!

He did just recently take a top 5 at TD-4. Toughest crowd you'll see !!
He gets that group thing figured out, look out !! I heard a rumor though
that a modifier disk might have been better then the sorted primers. But
just a rumor.....

 

[Dave M.]

I've read/watched all sorts of info re: sorting primers by weight but still have questions for you guys. Thanks for your help.

For LRPs what is the range of weight differences that you will use/shoot together for a F-Class 1K match?

I've attempted a couple of tests and can't achieve meaningful results. I weighed 200 Federal 210Ms, got a rough bell curve of distribution with the difference between the extremes being .24 grains. I shot those extremes expecting to see a noticeable difference in MV but didn't. Nothing notable on paper either.

So this leads me to consider several explanations and options:

1) The variance of the test batch is not great enough to matter (hence the first question).
2) The 284 cartridge (and capacity) is larger and so more variance is required to see a difference
3) Maybe I should sort out the really extreme outliers and not worry as much about smaller differences. If so, what weight difference would constitute an outlier?

Thanks

Sort if it makes you feel good and you see the results on the target. I never saw the difference and that includes on many winning rifles.

 

[Sumtoc]

Brian Zolnikov has a Youtube channel (The Witchdoctor) and has done some testing on primers that is worth viewing. Brian has a good handle both on test design and analysis.

This testing from Brian was one of the primary reasons to I went down this path. But now I'm thinking there are several differences between our systems:

1) He appears to be shooting BR while I shoot F-Class. Not to say that F-Class shooters can afford to be sloppy in their reloading process, but IMO shooting long strings in changing conditions puts wind reading firmly at the top of the list of variables to address.
2) In shooting BR his rifle handling skills are reliable and consistent. Mine are still suspect....
3) He tested with 6PPC, I shoot a straight 284. Would the cartridge capacity difference explain why I saw no difference when exactly repeating his test?

As an old sling shooter who transitioned to F-Class I still have that old instinct that the WTH shot was caused by me and not the rifle/ammo system. I've recently had elevation flyers at 1K that just recently started happening. I began searching for a rifle tune problem (in spite of shooting the same barrel/load for months without them). I'm now convinced those were not caused by primer weight variation. So the search continues....

I am retired and not lazy but I've always felt that "doing it all because why not?" was a serious waste of time. (I have this drive to be productive with my time.) Besides, tinkering with what matters and what doesn't is part of the enjoyment of the sport for me. I really appreciate all the feedback and understand not leaving anything on the table but after testing it seems I'll need to look elsewhere for these yo-yoing shots.

 

[rwj]

Do you polish bullets using Flitz too? Hard to argue with the match results you’ve had lately!

He did just recently take a top 5 at TD-4. Toughest crowd you'll see !!
He gets that group thing figured out, look out !! I heard a rumor though
that a modifier disk might have been better then the sorted primers. But
just a rumor.....

Poor attempt on my behalf to comment on extensive preparations while also realizing that they are producing great results for Dave!

 

[Doom]

This testing from Brian was one of the primary reasons to I went down this path. But now I'm thinking there are several differences between our systems:

1) He appears to be shooting BR while I shoot F-Class. Not to say that F-Class shooters can afford to be sloppy in their reloading process, but IMO shooting long strings in changing conditions puts wind reading firmly at the top of the list of variables to address.
2) In shooting BR his rifle handling skills are reliable and consistent. Mine are still suspect....
3) He tested with 6PPC, I shoot a straight 284. Would the cartridge capacity difference explain why I saw no difference when exactly repeating his test?

As an old sling shooter who transitioned to F-Class I still have that old instinct that the WTH shot was caused by me and not the rifle/ammo system. I've recently had elevation flyers at 1K that just recently started happening. I began searching for a rifle tune problem (in spite of shooting the same barrel/load for months without them). I'm now convinced those were not caused by primer weight variation. So the search continues....

I am retired and not lazy but I've always felt that "doing it all because why not?" was a serious waste of time. (I have this drive to be productive with my time.) Besides, tinkering with what matters and what doesn't is part of the enjoyment of the sport for me. I really appreciate all the feedback and understand not leaving anything on the table but after testing it seems I'll need to look elsewhere for these yo-yoing shots.

You have picked up exactly why I posted the link. Brian is shooting BR and having conversed with him and viewed his videos he is a very good shooter. If not in the teens then the 20's so he can often show results that us mere mortals (at least me) will never be able to discern from the noise without hundreds of rounds tested. I'm not a competitive shooter and most of the precision shooters I know are cast bullet (SRBR) or Palma.

I would suspect that cartridge capacity will matter. I haven't tried to test but it seems reasonable that as the cartridge capacity increases primer indued effects will be lessened up to some point. I believe this is the predominant issue with the 223 Rem and achieving low SD's.

His video Primer Sorting Follow Up: Sorted vs Not Sorted at 200 Yards was one I found particularly interesting. This test seems to indicate that for load development it may well matter that primers are not sorted. It is also a test that should be fairly easy to repeat.

I'm chasing some issues right now that I'm sure aren't load related. I hope you have luck in identifying whatever gremlin has taken up residence as your partner!

 

[Texas Solo]

Weighing primers seams silly to me.
I'm more concerned with my BC's being too high and my ES & SD's being too low.

 

[ranger3]

I don't like the price increases either, but so has everything, groceries, building materials, clothes, oil products. To me its more an available issue.

 

[F Class John]

I've...

• Tested it out a number of times over the years (low weight against high weight against random sample)
• Does it do 'something', how can it not but...see next line
• Never saw compelling evidence for me to do it (for me, with my loads, in F-Class, based on my expectations which I'd like to think are pretty high)
• Still did it anyway for a while off an on
• Did more testing and still didn't see any compelling evidence for me to do it
• Don't and won't do it anymore (and no I didn't sort for last years Nationals)
• I still have no issues getting great ES and SD numbers which to me is the compelling evidence for why I don't do it anymore.
• All of this being said, I'm still happy to show ways to do because I know some people want to and that's totally cool.
• In the end I've always said it one of those processes that cannot hurt, only help, but everyone has to determine how much that help is and whether it's worth the effort.

 

[Fuj]

[*]In the end I've always said it one of those processes that cannot hurt, only help, but everyone has to determine how much that help is and whether it's worth the effort.
[/LIST]

Depending on the discipline will define the need. I shoot mostly the
short game now with a little long range sprinkled in. With the shooters
I'm around, you do not leave "anything" on the table, and quite a few
of these guy's register for the Tack Driver event every year.

Would be nice to start a poll and split it up between short range BR,
long range BR, and F-Class......

 

[quest450]

I'm not a SRBR or F class shooter but I believe weighing primers can't hurt you as FCJ pointed out and definitely makes your 600 and 1K handloads more uniform and consistent.
If you're 0.5 MOA shooter in 600yd benchrest you're not even competitive, you have to agg 2" or less to place in top 5 and that's when you might want to consider weighing primers, bumping shoulder within 0.0005", uniforming PP, measuring primer seating depth, measuring internal case capacity, sorting, trimming and pointing bullets and doing all kinds of other voodoo things including sprinkling some sniper fairy dust on your barrel an hour and half before the match.

ps. Do not forget the Bullet Genie

 

[USMCDOC]

Short range, I can honestly say that I have not seen any real significant results from sorting primers. But at 1000 yards, my 223’s were holding 1/2 moa or less vertical dispersion. So back then, I was definitely in the sort the primers camp. Everything I did was to reduce the vertical dispersion.

 

[mikecr]

Unless you know exactly what you're measuring (for real), I don't see how it's credible to act on.
This goes with any component

 

[USMCDOC]

Unless you know exactly what you're measuring (for real), I don't see how it's credible to act on.
This goes with any component

Mike, I feel that the larger the case is, there is a wider range of acceptable variance. Yes you can say for instance, SRBR guys just dump powder. But it appears that they are getting away from that. I have seen it in my experience with the 223, the slightest change outside of what was or is the acceptable variance. Made a dramatic difference @1000 yards.

 

[JFrank]

The good news is that sorting components cost nothing and doesn’t take a huge amount of time.

 

[quest450]

Eggzakly I sorted 1K bullets yesterday afternoon watching hockey