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Primer vs. Primer

OK, another question from the newbie.

I have reloaded a couple of calibers using my Nosler reloading manual STRICTLY using their directions. If it says ther load is based on a Federal 210 primer I purchased and used a Federal 210 primer. But I wanted to load some 300 Win Mag rounds and my manual says use Federal 215 primers and I can not find any for sale.

How can I learn what primer can be replaced with another or which primer can only be used for such or load?

Forum members did provide guidance previously for a hunting round I could use a Federal 210 primer instead of a Federal 210M primer and not notice a difference at 100-200 yards.

Since the primer pocket is the same size, what's the difference in one primer over the other?

Bob,
 
Bob with the 66 said:
OK, another question from the newbie.

I have reloaded a couple of calibers using my Nosler reloading manual STRICTLY using their directions. If it says ther load is based on a Federal 210 primer I purchased and used a Federal 210 primer. But I wanted to load some 300 Win Mag rounds and my manual says use Federal 215 primers and I can not find any for sale.

How can I learn what primer can be replaced with another or which primer can only be used for such or load?

Forum members did provide guidance previously for a hunting round I could use a Federal 210 primer instead of a Federal 210M primer and not notice a difference at 100-200 yards.

Since the primer pocket is the same size, what's the difference in one primer over the other?

Bob,

Some of the slow ball powders are hard to light, but I use standard primers with H-4831 with no problems.
 
Bob with the 66 said:
OK, another question from the newbie.

I have reloaded a couple of calibers using my Nosler reloading manual STRICTLY using their directions. If it says ther load is based on a Federal 210 primer I purchased and used a Federal 210 primer. But I wanted to load some 300 Win Mag rounds and my manual says use Federal 215 primers and I can not find any for sale.

How can I learn what primer can be replaced with another or which primer can only be used for such or load?

Forum members did provide guidance previously for a hunting round I could use a Federal 210 primer instead of a Federal 210M primer and not notice a difference at 100-200 yards.

Since the primer pocket is the same size, what's the difference in one primer over the other?

Bob,

Significantly its the amount of energy they contribute to the ignition, affecting POI, MV and ES/SD numbers.
Other factors are dimensions, some have a larger diameter than others and finally some have different cup thicknesses allowing them to tolerate higher pressures before piercing.
 
6BRinNZ said:
...... have different cup thicknesses allowing them to tolerate higher pressures before piercing.

This topic remains one of my weakest qualities in producing an accurate load. And I've been told that cup thickness can assist in making sure casings faces/shoulder is kept tight (no movement) against the chamber face upon ignition when the firing pin strikes the primer. SO is it a matter of trial and error using different primers or is there some formula that helps one decide which primer will produce the best results. Just trying to learn so any comments would be appreciated. Thx!

Alex
 
People probaby stay away from the question because there is no clear answer.

I would change to a different, available brand of MAGNUM primer. Rule of thumb is somewhere arond 55 grains or more of most powders and you should use a magnum primer. They have more and longer flame propegation compared to regular ones. At least, that is what they are supposed to have.

Now the problem is compared to the Federal ones you have been using, will another brand magnum primer work? When I say "work", I mean more than work. Safety and pressure is the issue. You make a component change you may want to reduce the load a bit to start for safety. Don't know how "hot" your load is. If it's on the top end of pressure, buy another primer brand, reduce and try.

You can just substitute and probably get away with little to now change. Just remember I did NOT tell you that.
 
An Federal 215 is one of your "hottest" L/R Magnum primers. It was designed to ignite cartridges with copious amounts of powder. It does that very well. However, BALL POWDERS are very difficult to ignite properly. Winchester makes (or made?, since Hodgdon now owns them) ball powders exclusively. Their primers were / are designed to ignite them properly. Hence, the Winchester Large Rifle Magnum Primer is one of, if not the HOTTEST primer made. You can use it easily in place of the Federal 215 or the 215M (which is simply their "match" version of the same primer)..
 
Shynloco said:
6BRinNZ said:
...... have different cup thicknesses allowing them to tolerate higher pressures before piercing.

This topic remains one of my weakest qualities in producing an accurate load. And I've been told that cup thickness can assist in making sure casings faces/shoulder is kept tight (no movement) against the chamber face upon ignition when the firing pin strikes the primer. SO is it a matter of trial and error using different primers or is there some formula that helps one decide which primer will produce the best results. Just trying to learn so any comments would be appreciated. Thx!

Alex


Good morning Alex...

I am not sure what you mean by, ... that cup thickness can assist in making sure casings faces/shoulder is kept tight (no movement) against the chamber face upon ignition when the firing pin strikes the primer."

The different cups will have no effect on holding the case against the shoulder due to the firing pin. The firing pin itself, does NOT exert enough force on the cup to do anything... so pick the primer that gives you the best groups.

When detonated, all primers exert a large force to shove the loaded case against the shoulder, and then hold it there while the powder begins it's ignition stage. And this is the cause of case stretching, because, when the pressure gets high enough, the back of the case (the head) gets shoved back against the bolt, while the walls of the case are stuck to the side walls of the chamber.

The way to control the case shoulder being against the chamber shoulder, is by properly setting up of whatever sizing or bumping dies you are using, so you have from -0.005" of crush, to +0.001" of headspace ("clearance" for BigEdP51 and Guffy ;) )... which ever fits your style of shooting.
 
Here is some fun reading that adds to what CatShooter said. German's articles are a good collection.
On the index page, scroll down till you see the primer section and then start a pot of coffee....

Long ago, ballistics labs set up metrology and standards for primer performance. Some of this standardization is available in open literature, but I would describe it as hard to find.

I found the topic fascinating to say the least. Just a look at primers and their specifications and testing methods opens up a whole can of worms. This is without even going into how they interact with the cartridge performance as a whole.

As a hobbyist and consumer, we can certainly test composit performance, but I have often wondered about certain lots of primers I have come across over the years. If you ever see how they are made, you can understand why.

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html
 
I'm not certain if this will help you any, but it is very interesting. http://www.6mmbr.com/PrimerPix.html
 

When detonated, all primers exert a large force to shove the loaded case against the shoulder, and then hold it there while the powder begins it's ignition stage. And this is the cause of case stretching, because, when the pressure gets high enough, the back of the case (the head) gets shoved back against the bolt, while the walls of the case are stuck to the side walls of the chamber.

The way to control the case shoulder being against the chamber shoulder, is by properly setting up of whatever sizing or bumping dies you are using, so you have from -0.005" of crush, to +0.001" of headspace ("clearance" for BigEdP51 and Guffy ;) )... which ever fits your style of shooting.
[/quote]

First off, thank you gents for the lessons all of which I found both informative and very useful. And Cat, sorry for the mish mash I wrote as what you wrote is actually what I wanted to say/ask, but worded it very poorly. I think I was looking for direction in terms of trying to determine if there is any benefit in using Benchrest Primers as I normally do (for shooting 100 yd targets) vs trying Magnum Primers to gain any accuracy benefit. Looks like I may have to try some Magnum Primer just to test. For what it's worth, I usually use Federal BR primers or CCI Benchrest primer, depending on which caliber I'm shooting (based on prior testing). But I do have CCI Magnum primers that I normally load in my son's .223AR where we have found better accuracy with the Magnum primers.

Alex
 
CatShooter said:
When detonated, all primers exert a large force to shove the loaded case against the shoulder, and then hold it there while the powder begins it's ignition stage. And this is the cause of case stretching, because, when the pressure gets high enough, the back of the case (the head) gets shoved back against the bolt, while the walls of the case are stuck to the side walls of the chamber.

The way to control the case shoulder being against the chamber shoulder, is by properly setting up of whatever sizing or bumping dies you are using, so you have from -0.005" of crush, to +0.001" of headspace ("clearance" for BigEdP51 and Guffy ;) )... which ever fits your style of shooting.

Dear CatShooter (AKA Rat Bastard Long Haired Commie Pinko Pervert)

Don't ever mention my name in the same breath as fguffy. I do not have any magic feeler gauges, I didn't invent headspace or datum points and I'm not off my meds. ::)

Now lets clear up a few points, the firing pin is what drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case contacts the chambers shoulder and then stops and the cartridge goes bang. Then as the chamber pressure increases the primer is forced out of the primer pocket until it contacts the bolt face. As the chamber pressure increases further the base of the case is forced back and contacts the bolt face.

NOTE: You are also warned in the reloading manuals to NOT use cases from reduced loads with higher pressure loads because the shoulder of the case is pushed back by the firing pin each time the case is fired. Meaning these reduced load cases will have excessive head clearance with normal pressure loads. Each time the firing pin hits the rear of the case it gets approximately .001 shorter in cartridge headspace and a case head separation can will happen if the case is used with higher pressure loads.

HeadClearance_zpsf30a3af1.gif


HEADCLEARANCE-a_zps1a9a1011.jpg


And after posting very clear images on these subjects I think you may need new glasses or you suffering the onset of Alzheimer's.

P.S. You send me a PM asking why I haven't been posting here lately and then you become insulting. If you want to impress people then try posting the correct information. ;)

Signed
Your Ex buddy bigedp51 >:(

p-51-mustang_zpsoenf8frl.jpg
 
bigedp51 said:
CatShooter said:
When detonated, all primers exert a large force to shove the loaded case against the shoulder, and then hold it there while the powder begins it's ignition stage. And this is the cause of case stretching, because, when the pressure gets high enough, the back of the case (the head) gets shoved back against the bolt, while the walls of the case are stuck to the side walls of the chamber.

The way to control the case shoulder being against the chamber shoulder, is by properly setting up of whatever sizing or bumping dies you are using, so you have from -0.005" of crush, to +0.001" of headspace ("clearance" for BigEdP51 and Guffy ;) )... which ever fits your style of shooting.

Dear CatShooter (AKA Rat Bastard Long Haired Commie Pinko Pervert)

Don't ever mention my name in the same breath as fguffy. I do not have any magic feeler gauges, I didn't invent headspace or datum points and I'm not off my meds. ::)

Now lets clear up a few points, the firing pin is what drives the case forward until the shoulder of the case contacts the chambers shoulder and then stops and the cartridge goes bang. Then as the chamber pressure increases the primer is forced out of the primer pocket until it contacts the bolt face. As the chamber pressure increases further the base of the case is forced back and contacts the bolt face.

NOTE: You are also warned in the reloading manuals to NOT use cases from reduced loads with higher pressure loads because the shoulder of the case is pushed back by the firing pin each time the case is fired. Meaning these reduced load cases will have excessive head clearance with normal pressure loads. Each time the firing pin hits the rear of the case it gets approximately .001 shorter in cartridge headspace and a case head separation can will happen if the case is used with higher pressure loads.

HeadClearance_zpsf30a3af1.gif


HEADCLEARANCE-a_zps1a9a1011.jpg


And after posting very clear images on these subjects I think you may need new glasses or you suffering the onset of Alzheimer's.

P.S. You send me a PM asking why I haven't been posting here lately and then you become insulting. If you want to impress people then try posting the correct information. ;)

Signed
Your Ex buddy bigedp51 >:(

p-51-mustang_zpsoenf8frl.jpg
That's an interesting attitude!!!And I don't understand your headspacing.I was taught to slightly counter sink my primers.So how much headspace will I have?Please respond!!!
 
That's an interesting attitude!!!And I don't understand your headspacing.I was taught to slightly counter sink my primers.So how much headspace will I have? [huntert243sgk]


You're confusing two issues here. You're quite right in saying primers should be seated so that their faces are below that of the case-head. This is to (1) avoid a slamfire as the bolt is closed, and (2) to place the primer cup and the internal anvil's feet onto the floor of the case pocket, under slight tension ideally, to ensure that all of the firing pin's energy is directed to crushing the explosive pellet between the dented cup and the anvil point.

The headspace issue is that of setting the case-shoulder correctly in relation to the chamber. If the shoulder is pushed back too much in sizing, an excess headspace condition is created. When the firing pin falls, it pushes the entire cartridge forward until the front of the chamber stops the movement. As the primer simultaneously ignites, Newton's third law will see it attempt to move backwards out of the case, and it does so until it hits the bolt-face. So it backs out of the case-head a little, the exact amount depending on the headspace. At that point there is a gap between the bolt-face and the case-head as shown in bigedp51's animations - if the headspace is optimal there will be only one or two thou' clearance, but potentially much more of there is excess headspace. The front of the case walls now freeze (obturate) against the chamber walls as the charge burns and internal pressure rapidly increases, and the case stretches at the rear end just ahead of the solid web until the case-head hits the bolt-face and is stopped thereby. This stretching produces case-separation if signicant enough after a few firing / sizing cycles.

As the case stretches backwards, it reseats the primer in the pocket. A very flat primer face is usually taken as a sign of excessively high pressures, but it can be caused by modest or normal pressures when the headspace is excessive as its rear end is unsupported whilst sitting proud of the case-head allowing the face to flatten out against the bolt. A very (too) light load can produce a fired case with the primer sitting proud of the case-head as the case is pushed hard enough forwards into the chamber by the firing pin blow to push the shoulders back and temporarily create excess headspace, the primer backs out and the case doesn't stretch back to reseat the primer, this process being repeated over multiple firings and hence the advice not to use cases that have been fired with very low pressure loads to be then loaded up to full-house pressures.

So far as the OP's question goes, I'd agree that the Fed 215 is one of the 'hottest' primers on the market, so any other magnum primer can be safely substituted. The standard Winchester WLR is almost as hot and can used in lieu too.

Magnum primers don't always produce larger flames. Some models achieve their ends by incorporating powdered glass or metal which is forced into the main charge as incandescent particles helping large charges to ignite.

So far as cups are concerned, SR primers see different brass thickness between standard and magnum / BR versions, but all LR primers use 0.028" thick cups irrespective of their designation / role, so that's not an issue here. Some makes have a reputation for being 'harder' or 'softer' though as evidenced through flattening under pressure, and whilst probably exaggerated by shooters, this likely happens through minor differences in the brass alloy used to make them.
 
Laurie said:
That's an interesting attitude!!!And I don't understand your headspacing.I was taught to slightly counter sink my primers.So how much headspace will I have? [huntert243sgk]


You're confusing two issues here. You're quite right in saying primers should be seated so that their faces are below that of the case-head. This is to (1) avoid a slamfire as the bolt is closed, and (2) to place the primer cup and the internal anvil's feet onto the floor of the case pocket, under slight tension ideally, to ensure that all of the firing pin's energy is directed to crushing the explosive pellet between the dented cup and the anvil point.

The headspace issue is that of setting the case-shoulder correctly in relation to the chamber. If the shoulder is pushed back too much in sizing, an excess headspace condition is created. When the firing pin falls, it pushes the entire cartridge forward until the front of the chamber stops the movement. As the primer simultaneously ignites, Newton's third law will see it attempt to move backwards out of the case, and it does so until it hits the bolt-face. So it backs out of the case-head a little, the exact amount depending on the headspace. At that point there is a gap between the bolt-face and the case-head as shown in bigedp51's animations - if the headspace is optimal there will be only one or two thou' clearance, but potentially much more of there is excess headspace. The front of the case walls now freeze (obturate) against the chamber walls as the charge burns and internal pressure rapidly increases, and the case stretches at the rear end just ahead of the solid web until the case-head hits the bolt-face and is stopped thereby. This stretching produces case-separation if signicant enough after a few firing / sizing cycles.

As the case stretches backwards, it reseats the primer in the pocket. A very flat primer face is usually taken as a sign of excessively high pressures, but it can be caused by modest or normal pressures when the headspace is excessive as its rear end is unsupported whilst sitting proud of the case-head allowing the face to flatten out against the bolt. A very (too) light load can produce a fired case with the primer sitting proud of the case-head as the case is pushed hard enough forwards into the chamber by the firing pin blow to push the shoulders back and temporarily create excess headspace, the primer backs out and the case doesn't stretch back to reseat the primer, this process being repeated over multiple firings and hence the advice not to use cases that have been fired with very low pressure loads to be then loaded up to full-house pressures.

So far as the OP's question goes, I'd agree that the Fed 215 is one of the 'hottest' primers on the market, so any other magnum primer can be safely substituted. The standard Winchester WLR is almost as hot and can used in lieu too.

Magnum primers don't always produce larger flames. Some models achieve their ends by incorporating powdered glass or metal which is forced into the main charge as incandescent particles helping large charges to ignite.

So far as cups are concerned, SR primers see different brass thickness between standard and magnum / BR versions, but all LR primers use 0.028" thick cups irrespective of their designation / role, so that's not an issue here. Some makes have a reputation for being 'harder' or 'softer' though as evidenced through flattening under pressure, and whilst probably exaggerated by shooters, this likely happens through minor differences in the brass alloy used to make them.
Yes I agree with you on all that.My only mistake was in looking at his last drawing wrong.But thanks for pointing it out to me.Have a good day sir!!
 

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