Primer Question -- CCI 550 vs CCI 400

[jds holler]

Someone remind me, our tell me top shut-up. Seems like awhile back I'd read "reliable" information stating that CCI 550 (small pistol mag), was the same as CCI 400 (small rifle).

?? jd

 

[perazziguy]

I think I remember the same info, however, I can neither confirm or deny...seems they are same/same.

 

[jds holler]

outer dimension is identical. Maybe I'll have to preform a power/sound check. -- brisance??

 

[Mulligan]

Conversation With CCI Tech About SPM vs SR Primers - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

Posted: 7/22/2010 10:10:43 AM EDT




I posted this on another site last summer and forgot
about it. I happened to find my MSWord document of it so I thought I'd share.
This is from a conversation on
June
14, 2009 with CCI's tech dept.

I called not to complain about availability, but rather to discuss the
technical differences between their primer types. I was put in touch with one
of their tech reps who was very happy to discuss their primers. BTW, She
mentioned that she had worked there 38 yrs and never seen anything even close
to this kind of demand.


Then she said that they can produce 3 million primer per day flat out (which
they are currently running) but have currently over 1 Billion back ordered.
Unfortunately, that means that if all new orders stopped completely today.
Everything; ammo, gov't, and component, it would take almost a year running
flat out to catch up.


Anyway, I was asking about the cup thickness, formula differences, and formula
amount differences between their #500 (SP), #550 (SPM), and #400 (SR). She had
me hold a minute to get the detail specs up on her screen and this is what she
said.

Cup thickness:

The #500 has a thinner cup than either the #550 or #400,
however, both the #550 and #400 have the same cup dimensions (including
thickness).
Flash powder formula:

All three sizes use the same formula for the flash
powder.
Flash powder amount:

The #500 has a slightly smaller amount (3
micrograms) than the #550 or #400 which both have the same amount.

I asked if the SR primers could be used as an acceptable substitute for the SPM
primers. She compared the #550 and #400 and then replied that yes, they appeared
to have the same specs, same dimensions, same cup thickness, same formula, and
same amount of flash powder. She even noted that the SPM primers were slightly
taller than the SP primers and were spec'd the same dimensions as the #400.


I asked if she knew any reason not to just use SR primers for both magnum
pistol and rifle applications based upon that information and she said that
many there only bought rifle primers and used them for all their reloading,
magnum or not. The only exception being for custom pistols where the thicker
rifle cup contributed to misfires, which she said only occurred in custom race
pistols.




I also remembered that post from a while back.

I found this when I started digging

CW

 

[bozo699]

I found this a while back on another forum look at note#1 very bottom
Wayne



PRIMER CHART & REFERENCE GUIDE

Small Handgun Standard .017" cup thickness
CCI 500
Federal 100 - Has a soft cup - good to use if hammer strike is light.
Federal 100M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SP
Magtech PR-SPC - Lead-free "Clean Range" primer for indoor ranges etc.
Remington 1 ½
RWS 4031
Winchester WSP
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol SP #KVB-9 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9SP - "For 9×19 NATO cartridges"
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol #KVB-9S - "For Sporting Pistol loads"

Small Handgun Magnum .017" cup thickness
CCI 550 See Note 1 at the bottom of page
Federal 200
Federal 200M - Match version of above
Magtech PR-SPM
Remington 5 ½
RWS 4047
Winchester WSPM
Wolf/Tula Small Pistol Magnum SPM #KVB-9M - brass cup - "For Magnum Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Standard .020" cup thickness
CCI 300
Federal 150 - Has a thinner cup
Magtech PR-LP
Remington 2 ½
RWS 5337
Winchester WLP
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol LP #KVB-45 - brass cup - "For Standard Pistol loads"

Large Handgun Magnum .020" cup thickness
CCI 350
Federal 155
Wolf/Tula Large Pistol Magnum LPM #KVB-45M - brass cup - For Magnum Pistol loads

Small Rifle Standard
CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine. See Note 1 at the bottom of the page
CCI BR4 - match primer with a thicker .025" cup.
Federal 205 - Mil-Spec cup thickness according to Federal - okay for 5.56mm. .0225" cup thickness.
Federal 205M - same as the 205 but the match version.
Magtech PR-SR - .025" cup thickness (not much feedback yet on this new primer as to AR15 suitability but with the same cup thickness as the Rem 7 1/2 it looks good so far)
Remington 6 ½ - thin .020" cup, intended for older, lower pressure rounds Remington says do not use for the .223 Rem or other similar pressure rounds. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Lyman & Nosler classify this primer as a Standard. Remington says the compound is the same as the 6 1/2 but with a thicker .025" cup.
RWS 4033
Winchester WSR - some piercing issues noted when changed from silver to brass cup. Cup thickness is a bit thinner at .021". Most say they are good to go for the AR15 despite that, probably because of the hardness of the cup. Some feel they are less resistant to higher pressures.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle SR #KVB-223 - soft, sensitive copper cup, not recommended for AR15/military rifle use or high pressure rounds.

Small Rifle Magnum
CCI 450 - same thicker .025" cup as the BR4 and #41.
CCI #41 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo. With this primer there is more 'distance' between the tip of the anvil and the bottom of the cup than with other CCI SR primers. .025" thick cup. Same primer mix as CCI 450.
Remington 7 ½ BR - A match or "bench rest" primer. Hornady, Handloads.com, and Chuck Hawks classify this primer as a Magnum, differing from other sources that classify it as a Standard. .025" cup thickness.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle Magnum SRM - hard, less sensitive brass cup intended for AR15/military rifle and high pressure rounds - #KVВ-5,56M.
Wolf/Tula Small Rifle 223 SR223 - #KVB-223M "This is the newest primer available in the Wolf line. It is ever so slightly hotter than the small rifle magnum primer and it comes with a brass colored thick cup. This primer can be used in place of the SRM primer or used when a different powder is used that is hard to ignite."

Large Rifle Standard
CCI 200 - mild in brisance. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
CCI BR2 - same as the 200 but the match version. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210 - medium brisance between CCI/Remington & Winchester. Do not use in semi-automatics.
Federal 210M - match version of the above primer. Do not use in semi-automatics.
Magtech PR-LR
Remington 9 ½ - mild in brisance.
RWS 5341
Winchester WLR - the hottest standard primer. Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle LR #KVB-7 - all brass - "For Standard Rifle loads".
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle #KVB-7,62 - "For 7,62 NATO cartridges"

Wolf/Tula primers are used by noted match shooter David Tubbs who says: "Be sure they are seated into the case - if not they can be hard to ignite. Russian primers use a different sinoxide compound (closer to the European type), which, in my testing, consistently delivers better extreme spreads over Federal..." Hard enough for use in semi-automatics.

Large Rifle Magnum
CCI 250
CCI #34 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Federal 215 - original magnum primer
Remington 9 ½ M - mildest magnum primer.
RWS 5333
Winchester WLRM
Wolf/Tula Large Rifle Magnum LRM #KVB-7M - all brass - "For Magnum Rifle loads".

50 BMG
CCI #35 - commercial version of the fully-qualified DOD primer for use in U.S. military ammo.
Winchester 8312
Wolf/Tula 50 Cal Machine Gun #KVB-50 - For 50 Browning Machine Gun

Primers recommended for use in .223 Rem/5.56 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #41, 450, BR4 (#41 & 450 good with ball powder)
Federal 205, 205M
Remington 7 1/2 BR (good with ball powder)
Winchester WSR (good with ball powder)
Wolf SRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf SR223 (hotter than SRM - great with ball powder)

Primers recommended for use in .308 Win/7.62x51/7.62x39 semiautomatic rifle loads:

CCI #34, 200, BR2, CCI 250
Winchester WLR, WLRM (good with ball powder)
Wolf LR

WOLF/TULA PRIMER APPLICATION CHART FOR ALL PRIMERS - http://www.mpzflame.ru/production/primers/
Wolf and Tula are two of the common U.S. marketing names of primers made by Murom (OJSC «Murom Apparatus Producing plant» "For many years, our constant partners are «The Tula Cartridge Works», «Barnaul Cartridge Plant» and others.").

##################################################################################

NOTE 1: According to Speer/CCI Technical Services - Both the CCI 550 Small Pistol Magnum and CCI 400 Small Rifle primers are identical in size. Both primers use the same cup metal and share the same cup thickness. Both primers use the same primer compound formula and same amount of primer compound. They can be used interchangeably.

 

[Rocketvapor]

A difference of 3 micro grams (0.00005 grains) between the 500 and 550 (400) seems like a very small amount.
I have some 400 that works well in hot 357 loads. I wonder how much primer compound is in one of those.

Oh NO !!! Is that another primer test?

 

[bozo699]

I’ve made this same statement almost word for word many times on this forum in various primer threads and people think I’m crazy, I was a electrician at CCI for almost 7 years so I worked in every department so I knew there stance on the primers they build.


CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.

And…..And other low pressure loads!… they were not designed for high pressure cartridges
Hence why there’s post after post with people piercing primers. I have used them in a pinch in 6br and variants based off 6br case with pretty good results for the most part but I built a 6brx for my son in a Savage action and I had to have it bushed, also another off a old Wichita 6ppc I opened the bolt face up to accept the br case and screwed a 6brx barrel on it and it would pierce 205’s and 400’s but br4’s and 450’s worked fine in it.
Wayne

 

[jds holler]

THANKYOU!! YOU GUYS ARE THE BOMB!!

That was exactly the info I was looking for, and a bunch more to boot.

Only bad news is about the 400's in AR application. And Imma prolly have to prove that for myself. Anybody have particularly bad luck in that regard? jd

 

[bozo699]

THANKYOU!! YOU GUYS ARE THE BOMB!!

That was exactly the info I was looking for, and a bunch more to boot.

Only bad news is about the 400's in AR application. And Imma prolly have to prove that for myself. Anybody have particularly bad luck in that regard? jd

JD,
CCI makes 41 primers for use in ar’s they were specifically designed for ar’s as to not have slam fires. I’m not a ar guy but I know that much. I have heard good results using 450’s and br4’s in ar’s . There’s plenty on here that will tell you 400’s are ok in a ar but I’m not one of them. Good luck buddy
Wayne

 

[Rocketvapor]

JD,
watch load level (stay away from upper end loads) with WSR, or CCI400.
A blown primer can cost you a damaged firing pin.

 

[jds holler]

JD,
watch load level (stay away from upper end loads) with WSR, or CCI400.
A blown primer can cost you a damaged firing pin.

Gotcha. I'm not generally a "top end of the scale" guy when it comes to my loads. I've made that mistake in the bad ol days, and don't care to go back.

My experience with WSM's has been blowing primers on loads that gave no problems with with CCI 400's jd

 

[Evan]

Just as a data point, my Borden Rimrocks can run full pressure loads with CCI400 and Rem 6.5 without issue. I think piercing primers is entirely the guns fault and is the result of a poor firing system. But yes, everyone should avoid 400 and 6.5 primers; they’re worthless and definitely not worth buying.

 

[Retired shooter]

Just my 2 pennies worth.
My son and I have loaded many rounds of .223 / 6 ARC for use in several different AR type rifles using the CCI 400 primers. That has been our go to primer. Have always seated the primer flush with the base or .002 /.003 deep. Never ever a primer problem, never a slam fire from any of our A R rifle's.

 

[kyotekiller25]

I think I'm just going to use the rest of my 400s up I had for my triple deuce in my 9mm.

They don't work very well in my new 223 Wylde at 60K PSI...I learned the hard way with pierced primers.

I've got plenty of Rem 7.5s, and CCI 450s/BR4s I to use for it. Just thought I could get away with using the 400s before I got into those. Bur the rifle said nope!

 

[drop_point]

THANKYOU!! YOU GUYS ARE THE BOMB!!

That was exactly the info I was looking for, and a bunch more to boot.

Only bad news is about the 400's in AR application. And Imma prolly have to prove that for myself. Anybody have particularly bad luck in that regard? jd

I've never had a problem with 400s in my ARs. I've shot between 14 and 15 thousand reloaded rounds through them, with the majority of them loaded with CCI400s after my stash of 41s ran dry.

 

[Retired shooter]

My local GS has not had any 41s for several years. Has a good supply of CCI 400s. Limit of 1000 per day.
Bought some Winchester to test out.

 

[rijndael]

My Cabela's is packed with 41s:

 

[451whitworth]

I know this was about small pistol mag vs. small rifle CCI primers but I have a brick of Federal No. 200 small rifle primers from the '80's. They're old enough that the packaging is the standard size, not the oversized kind Federal has been using for the past 30(?) years. They say "SMALL RIFLE PRIMERS and high velocity pistol" on each sleeve of 100. I've been using Federal 200's and CCI 400's in .357 Mag and 9mm since the 80's with no issues. The only reason I have a couple of bricks of small pistol primers is for my Colt 1908 .380 ACP.

 

[divingin]

CCI 400 -thin .020" cup, not recommended for AR15 use by CCI/Speer. Good for .22 Hornet, .30 Carbine.

And…..And other low pressure loads!… they were not designed for high pressure cartridges
Hence why there’s post after post with people piercing primers. I have used them in a pinch in 6br and variants based off 6br case with pretty good results for the most part...

I use 400's and BR4's largely interchangeably in my straight 6BR. I typically don't run really high pressure loads, though I have ventured there at times. Never really noticed anything different in performance or post-firing appearance.

 

[bozo699]

Just as a data point, my Borden Rimrocks can run full pressure loads with CCI400 and Rem 6.5 without issue. I think piercing primers is entirely the guns fault and is the result of a poor firing system. But yes, everyone should avoid 400 and 6.5 primers; they’re worthless and definitely not worth buying.

Nobody,…. At least I never said they were useless, I said per the manufacturers own words there not designed for ar’s or high pressure loads!…. I have quite a few custom actions that can utilize them if need be as well. But I can remember a time the closest thing to a custom actioned rifle I owned was a Remington with a tuned trigger, and there’s a lot of people including myself that use savages and other non desirable actions that will not shoot the thinner cup primers behind high pressure loads.
I do things all the time considered not safe in my loading practices, however when putting it in writing on an open forum I try not to post those things…… I have been guilty of it but I try not too.
Wayne