Primer Anvil

[JRS]

Ho Lee Schitt! What a thread this turned into.

The foil is there, Cat, but it is embedded in the compound and is not normally noticed. I loaded for four years before I saw a couple that had become separated.

Nonsense... if you knew how primers are made, you would know that is impossible. Four whole years - golly, I am impressed.

What is it that you find to be impossible? That the primer does in FACT contain a piece of paper foil, or that it can't become separated? Not possible Oh my : You'll never admit you are wrong, will you Professor ;D

Reference the photo on thread #39. I suppose my eyesight could be failing me, but, it appears to me, the compound shows separation ???

 

[CatShooter]

Ho Lee Schitt! What a thread this turned into.

The foil is there, Cat, but it is embedded in the compound and is not normally noticed. I loaded for four years before I saw a couple that had become separated.

Nonsense... if you knew how primers are made, you would know that is impossible. Four whole years - golly, I am impressed.

What is it that you find to be impossible? That the primer does in FACT contain a piece of paper foil, or that it can't become separated? Not possible Oh my : You'll never admit you are wrong, will you Professor ;D

Reference the photo on thread #39. I suppose my eyesight could be failing me, but, it appears to me, the compound shows separation ???

Lesse....

First there is a felt pad between the pellet and the anvil. But that would cushion the firing pin (and be easy to see), so that is not working out.

Then the felt pad is inside the pellet to absorb moisture - but felt is hydroscopic, so that is not working out... and how did the felt pad get "inside" the pellet??

Then the foil is on the pellet, which also should be easy to see, but it is not there... so that isn't working out

Now the foil is inside the pellet??? Are you kidding? The pellet is extruded wet into the cup, so how did the foil get inside of the pellet, and the greater question is, why would a primer manufacturer put a foil inside the pellet - and to what end??

"I suppose my eyesight could be failing me, but, it appears to me, the compound shows separation.

Get some eye glasses, your eyesight is definately failing. There is no compound separation.

No felt, and no foil... just priming compond that shows the impression of the anvil when it was put in while the pellet was wet.

Now, grow up... you don't know doodley squat about this.

 

[JRS]

Ho Lee Schitt! What a thread this turned into.

The foil is there, Cat, but it is embedded in the compound and is not normally noticed. I loaded for four years before I saw a couple that had become separated.

Nonsense... if you knew how primers are made, you would know that is impossible. Four whole years - golly, I am impressed.

What is it that you find to be impossible? That the primer does in FACT contain a piece of paper foil, or that it can't become separated? Not possible Oh my : You'll never admit you are wrong, will you Professor ;D

Reference the photo on thread #39. I suppose my eyesight could be failing me, but, it appears to me, the compound shows separation ???

Lesse....

First there is a felt pad between the pellet and the anvil. But that would cushion the firing pin (and be easy to see), so that is not working out.

Then the felt pad is inside the pellet to absorb moisture - but felt is hydroscopic, so that is not working out... and how did the felt pad get "inside" the pellet??

Then the foil is on the pellet, which also should be easy to see, but it is not there... so that isn't working out

Now the foil is inside the pellet??? Are you kidding? The pellet is extruded wet into the cup, so how did the foil get inside of the pellet, and the greater question is, why would a primer manufacturer put a foil inside the pellet - and to what end??

"I suppose my eyesight could be failing me, but, it appears to me, the compound shows separation.

Get some eye glasses, your eyesight is definately failing. There is no compound separation.

:

No felt, and no foil... just priming compond that shows the impression of the anvil when it was put in while the pellet was wet.

Now, grow up... you don't know doodley squat about this.

Photo on post #39. No? Your cop-out is quite sad Professor ;D The photo you attached is most certainly NOT the photo on post #39. That particular photo CLEARLY shows the separation in the priming compound. I'll help you out. #39 is the post before #40, and after #38. And then we have the statement from the FBI forensic lab, dated 2011. And you maintain experienced, professional knowledge, regarding the manufacture of primers : Your credibility is shot ;D Stick to the ivory keys on your piano, and walk away from the keyboard on you computer ;D ;D ;D Maybe…. just maybe…. you might use your Rockwell hardness tester to ascertain the existence of the paper foil : I hope you aren't looking for something that resembles aluminum foil? I can only imagine, the different primer makers don't all use the same colored paper foil :-\

 

[JRS]

I found this in a box of Federal Large Rifle match primers a while back...

Plug in your candelabra Professor, and have a look-see!

 

[CatShooter]

You are wasting everyone's time with this - that photo shows nothing that relates to your fantasy, and name calling does not enhance your case... you lose.

 

[JRS]

So you really don't see the separation in the compound When the very thin film of paper foil drys out over time, it separates. No??? What happens to your skin when it dry's out Professor? Unfortunately, we don't want to moisturize the primers to mitigate the cracking and separation. They probably wouldn't ignite too well ;D

BTW: I have not "called you names" and don't intend to On another note: i've lost (as in lose) many times, but, i'm not "loose" ;D

 

[CatShooter]

So you really don't see the separation in the compound When the very thin film of paper foil drys out over time, it separates. No??? What happens to your skin when it dry's out Professor? Unfortunately, we don't want to moisturize the primers to mitigate the cracking and separation. They probably wouldn't ignite too well ;D

Nothing is separating... paste that dries commonly shows surface cracks, like dried mud.

BTW: I have not "called you names" and don't intend to

My "music education"??

"Professsor"??

Go find a life someplace... you are wasting your time, and you still know nothing about primers.

 

[JRS]

Music education is not name calling Cat. And Professor…. that's quite a compliment IMO If you so choose, you can call me names, and refer to me as Dr. I've earned it

 

[JRS]

No longer in solid form. Meaning, it has cracked, opened, separated. What was, and is, the original intent and use for the paper foil? To protect the compound from moisture And probably keep it from falling out Play me a tune Cat, play me a tune ;D

 

[LHSmith]

From one of my wife's Structural Engineering books, "Techniques in Structural Design" - "proud" - "Projecting or protruding from the surrounding area".

And another: University of California San Diego text book from their school of Structural Engineering: Modern Architectural Design: "proud" - "raised or protruding".

Are these the same books that claim heat makes most metals contract?

 

[JRS]

I don't know what proud means but you can clearly see they are at varying heights. Primer seating can clearly effect ignition and group size at distance. If some are at crush and some are at touch and some are slightly off ignition suffers. It causes vertical at 1000 yards. Matt

FWIW...Pretty sure the correct word is "prowed". A term used in roof construction where the roof length is greater at the ridge than the bottom portion- aka an "eagle beak" roof. If you look up the CORRECT spelling, it means "bowed." Class dismissed :

Easy there young fella Isn't that your post above ???

"prowed"

 

[Mr Underbridge]

Ok I am going to put on a face shield and an apron to avoid the fecal matter flying I am going to leave this here and very slowly back away, please do not fling poo at me I am just sharing some info.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/primer.cfm
With the insane demands on the industry right now I would not be surprised if they skipped this step or developed a better chemical compound so the foil is not needed.

 

[JRS]

Ok I am going to put on a face shield and an apron to avoid the fecal matter flying I am going to leave this here and very slowly back away, please do not fling poo at me I am just sharing some info.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/primer.cfm

That'll never work The CatShooter has already determined that article is 35-40 years old and no longer applies :

 

[BoydAllen]

I select primers by looking at targets. None of this will change that, therefore, for all practical purposes this is irrelevant information unless someone can explain why it is not. I see no convincing evidence in the photos that have been posted, of anything that substantiates what the OP is asserting. The one thing that I would suggest, having made the mistake myself a few times, is that personal attacks, degrade forum discussions, and are unnecessary distractions from topics under discussion. Ultimately we all get to do our hobbies the way that pleases us, and are free to form our own opinions. This is a good thing. That we disagree on some points is inevitable.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

Found this article talking about primers and "foil": http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

I also emailed CCI asking whether they use "foil" in their primers, this should be interesting....

 

[Syncrowave]

I also emailed CCI asking whether they use "foil" in their primers, this should be interesting....

Foil needs to be rationed for more important uses!

 

[JRS]

Found this article talking about primers and "foil": http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/

I also emailed CCI asking whether they use "foil" in their primers, this should be interesting....

Here is the response from Federal Premium Ammunition:

"The colored material visible under the anvil of a primer is not the priming compound itself but rather a sealer used to keep the pellet in place during manufacturing and transportation. Paper/foil disc or lacquer type sealer in varying colors or clear are used".

Time to move on to a different subject.

Adios

 

[MagnumManiac]

Catshooter,
I think you have misinterperated what I meant, what I was referring to are the feet of the anvil being above the cup BEFORE being put into a case, where they become flush with the cup. In other words, the anvil foot is higher than the cup, or, in fact, proud. If they weren't proud, a primer flipper wouldn't work.
The priming pellet is wet when put in the cup, true, and the anvil is only just resting on it at the time it is seated. It is true that it is left high for safe transportation.

Cheers.
:-\

If primer safety was the reason, then the feet would be flush, so nothing could touch them... and the cone of the anvil would not be set into the compound, it would not be touching the pellet.

Primers do not go off in transport, no matter where the anvil is set. If they could, then no one would ship them.

Sorry, but my statement came from the manufacturer regarding safe transportation, and the anvil being proud during transit is so that the priming pellet is NOT in the slightest compressed. If only one primer detonates, all in it's proximity will also detonate.
By the way, 'PROUD' is a technical term in engineering, as stated elsewhere in this thread.

Cheers.

 

[LHSmith]

Well "proud" meaning - "to stand out from a surface" appears to be a UK term. I googled it again and find that the word stumps moderators on US engineering forums. On two websites, engineering dictionary.com and engineering dictionary.net when one types in "proud" in the search it says "no matches found".
Google "prowed" and you find it means "raised in the middle".
BTW you won't find the term in the Machinery Handbook and believe it or not I have a BSMET and never heard nor seen on drawings or text the word "proud" in this context. I have seen and heard "prowed" -it is a common architectural term.

 

[BoydAllen]

This is all about a vocabulary divide between the skilled trades and college educated engineers. I am pretty sure that a cabinet maker, finish carpenter or machinists would be familiar with the use of proud to mean protruding above. In this same vein, after college I wanted to get some framing experience, so I worked for a while on a crew, and had to ask may boss what he meant when he said that I should move something a RCH. Later that knowledge came in handy in all sorts of construction related conversations, not that it was used very often, but when it was, everyone knew what was meant.

Scroll down to the second set of definitions and loot at number 8.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proud
A little hard to find, but it is there. People who write dictionaries do not usually have the background to have been exposed to some usages or nuances.