Prep of 22rf method?

[1911nut]

Now, not to pick on you, however, first off nobody articulates what exactly we’re calling a flier. Seems lots of guys whose shot doesn’t center punch a target…..must be a flier.Across most forums, far too many blame ammo instead of missed condition.
Also in the absence of exhaustive testing and documentation, far greater probability it’s condition.

That’s right. I’ve shot enough bench guns, centerfire and rimfire. I was slow to accept early on that I was the main cause of many of the shots not going into the center of the group or the 10 ring.

I miss conditions sure, I’ve shot enough Center X unsorted and sorted to see the benefit of sorting base to ogive. I’ve typically bought blind 2 or 3 bricks at a time, and probably sorted more than a case of CX.
Some lots have a few rounds that measure .015” shorter or longer than the “average”.

Sorting results in a normal kinda distribution, it’s the rounds in the tails of the distribution that seem to fly.
I’ve tested that a little and plan to more this year. Maybe shoot the shortest as a group and the longest as a group and see where they land on the target? Whata ya think?

 

[TRSR8]

That’s right. I’ve shot enough bench guns, centerfire and rimfire. I was slow to accept early on that I was the main cause of many of the shots not going into the center of the group or the 10 ring.

I miss conditions sure, I’ve shot enough Center X unsorted and sorted to see the benefit of sorting base to ogive. I’ve typically bought blind 2 or 3 bricks at a time, and probably sorted more than a case of CX.
Some lots have a few rounds that measure .015” shorter or longer than the “average”.

Sorting results in a normal kinda distribution, it’s the rounds in the tails of the distribution that seem to fly.
I’ve tested that a little and plan to more this year. Maybe shoot the shortest as a group and the longest as a group and see where they land on the target? Whata ya think?

Sure, give it a shot, report back what your assessment is.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Now, not to pick on you, however, first off nobody articulates what exactly we’re calling a flier. Seems lots of guys whose shot doesn’t center punch a target…..must be a flier.Across most forums, far too many blame ammo instead of missed condition.
Also in the absence of exhaustive testing and documentation, far greater probability it’s condition.

Tim,
My definition of a flier is a shot going high or low from hold off this would be on the vertical line any horizontal could be missed condition like you say.
I have seen where a round shorter or longer than what is within a specific measured group either shoot higher or lower and I am talking perhaps a bullet diameter to 1/4" now I am not a data junkie, so I keep no records, but I would guess I have sorted about 50K rounds or more.
Ron Elbe wrote what he saw when sorting by OAL the article is at RFC he is an accomplished RFBR shooter certainly more than I am, so what he writes certainly holds more water than what I write about.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

That’s right. I’ve shot enough bench guns, centerfire and rimfire. I was slow to accept early on that I was the main cause of many of the shots not going into the center of the group or the 10 ring.

I miss conditions sure, I’ve shot enough Center X unsorted and sorted to see the benefit of sorting base to ogive. I’ve typically bought blind 2 or 3 bricks at a time, and probably sorted more than a case of CX.
Some lots have a few rounds that measure .015” shorter or longer than the “average”.

Sorting results in a normal kinda distribution, it’s the rounds in the tails of the distribution that seem to fly.
I’ve tested that a little and plan to more this year. Maybe shoot the shortest as a group and the longest as a group and see where they land on the target? Whata ya think?

Have you been seeing where you find a certain OAL that shoots well and that those rounds that are shorter or longer than 0.015 shoot either high or low?
I sort in groups with 0.005 spread as I didn't see where 0.005 made a difference for example 0.725-0.730 would be grouped together.

Lee

 

[grauhanen]

A flyer can occur in any direction, not only high or low (although that may help eliminate the involvement of conditions). And that's the problem. How can a shooter know when it's missed conditions or ammo-related?

If it happens in a testing tunnel, the answer seems obvious. If it happens outdoors, the question remains. When a shooter successfully accounts for wind for 24 of 25 shots, is the missed shot his fault or the ammo's? It's hard to know for sure.

The other issue is how far away from POA does a round have to be to be a "flyer"? Few rounds will have exactly the same POI. The less consistent the lot, the more variety in POI. A poor lot may have large groups but no or few flyers. When a very good lot has a rare flyer it seems quite obvious.

The flyer question is typically less obvious at 50. At twice the distance it is much more clear, even when looking only at high or low shots.

 

[TRSR8]

Tim,
My definition of a flier is a shot going high or low from hold off this would be on the vertical line any horizontal could be missed condition like you say.
I have seen where a round shorter or longer than what is within a specific measured group either shoot higher or lower and I am talking perhaps a bullet diameter to 1/4" now I am not a data junkie, so I keep no records, but I would guess I have sorted about 50K rounds or more.
Ron Elbe wrote what he saw when sorting by OAL the article is at RFC he is an accomplished RFBR shooter certainly more than I am, so what he writes certainly holds more water than what I write about.

Lee

Lee,
Thanks. I guess a variance in terminology. While obviously not being there……but, personally, i would suspect sneaky vertical condition.
Over the years, I’ve been fortunate but have been at matches with what I’d personally label as flyers, typically low, different sound entirely, and off by rings…sometimes into the black……now that’s a flyer.
That said, still, plenty of ranges with sneaky vertical component, we have one where occasionally suffer completely unseen vertical as in an “8” that will catch me as well as 1-2 guys either side firing close, which tells me anyway, that there was condition every time.
Cannot count the times over the years that has ruined an agg.
Ah, the mysteries of RFBR.

Tim

 

[1911nut]

Have you been seeing where you find a certain OAL that shoots well and that those rounds that are shorter or longer than 0.015 shoot either high or low?
I sort in groups with 0.005 spread as I didn't see where 0.005 made a difference for example 0.725-0.730 would be grouped together.

Lee

In my 40x It seemed the longer rounds shot best, I’d have to revisit that. If the ammo was sorted to groups that were within .003” spread they shot enough better than unsorted to make the sorting worthwhile.
I still have a couple bricks of Center X I’ll try again this summer. I’ve been shooting Pistol King because it’s been available and in my rifle it’s pretty close to a good lot of CX.

 

[TRSR8]

In my 40x It seemed the longer rounds shot best, I’d have to revisit that. If the ammo was sorted to groups that were within .003” spread they shot enough better than unsorted to make the sorting worthwhile.
I still have a couple bricks of Center X I’ll try again this summer. I’ve been shooting Pistol King because it’s been available and in my rifle it’s pretty close to a good lot of CX.

Let’s perhaps not disregard the possibility that you’re talking a single rifle which may very well be a unicorn.
My comments came from multiple guns, multiple barrels, high grade match chambers.

 

[stacy]

I haven't sorted for rim thickness in probably more than 30 years. I tried it but never really saw a benefit. Unless RF cartridges are more consistent than the used to be it is very likely that you can get different readings simply by checking different places on the rim.

Try a 22mag measuring rim
Thickness and you may change your mind

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

In my 40x It seemed the longer rounds shot best, I’d have to revisit that. If the ammo was sorted to groups that were within .003” spread they shot enough better than unsorted to make the sorting worthwhile.
I still have a couple bricks of Center X I’ll try again this summer. I’ve been shooting Pistol King because it’s been available and in my rifle it’s pretty close to a good lot of CX.

is your 40X factory barreled? could be why. I am shooting benchmarks all setup with the Nevius chamber with minimum engraving of 0.030.
Have you noticed some rounds are tighter even though the measured length is shorter? I have with this lot of Midas+ also are you seeing the PK measuring shorter than the CX? all the PK I have measured is way shorter than any CX as much as 0.040 normally in the 0.680-0.710 range

Lee

 

[1911nut]

Let’s perhaps not disregard the possibility that you’re talking a single rifle which may very well be a unicorn.
My comments came from multiple guns, multiple barrels, high grade match chambers.

Yeah. I can’t do that…

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee,
Thanks. I guess a variance in terminology. While obviously not being there……but, personally, i would suspect sneaky vertical condition.
Over the years, I’ve been fortunate but have been at matches with what I’d personally label as flyers, typically low, different sound entirely, and off by rings…sometimes into the black……now that’s a flyer.
That said, still, plenty of ranges with sneaky vertical component, we have one where occasionally suffer completely unseen vertical as in an “8” that will catch me as well as 1-2 guys either side firing close, which tells me anyway, that there was condition every time.
Cannot count the times over the years that has ruined an agg.
Ah, the mysteries of RFBR.

Tim

Tim,
Our club range I swear has gremlins as sometimes for no apparent reason a shot goes way out from where it should go. a friend uses electronic wind meters that links to a monitor and I remember him telling me he saw the wind change 360-degree directions and speed all within a few seconds.

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

Yeah. I can’t do that…

Understandable, but that's why, often, some observations are less than universal or completely vetted.

 

[TRSR8]

Tim,
Our club range I swear has gremlins as sometimes for no apparent reason a shot goes way out from where it should go. a friend uses electronic wind meters that links to a monitor and I remember him telling me he saw the wind change 360-degree directions and speed all within a few seconds.

Lee

Lee,
Yes sir, plenty of them do, often why plenty prefer moderate wind to very light.
Over the years, 90%-95% seems "what you see[or miss] is what you get" it's that other 5%+ that will drive you nuts.....not often but it's there. I suspect it's often a boundary layer type deal.

 

[1Merlin]

Tim,
Our club range I swear has gremlins as sometimes for no apparent reason a shot goes way out from where it should go. a friend uses electronic wind meters that links to a monitor and I remember him telling me he saw the wind change 360-degree directions and speed all within a few seconds.

Lee

360 changes are common happenings. We call them dust devils around TX. Mini tornados full of sand and dust.

 

[1911nut]

is your 40X factory barreled? could be why. I am shooting benchmarks all setup with the Nevius chamber with minimum engraving of 0.030.
Have you noticed some rounds are tighter even though the measured length is shorter? I have with this lot of Midas+ also are you seeing the PK measuring shorter than the CX? all the PK I have measured is way shorter than any CX as much as 0.040 normally in the 0.680-0.710 range

Lee

Yep factory barrel. It’s a Custom shop 40XR from the 1990’s .
Haven’t noticed some short rounds are tighter. A few years ago when CX and Midas were unobtainable I remember reading guys were having good results with PK. It shoots well for me unsorted . I don’t think I ever measured PK.
I don’t compete - matches are way too far away. I’m the only one at my club shooting a rimfire bench gun.
The rifle does great for me, I’ve been able to clean the Green Monster with 11-16 X’s, the easiest score target…. I got a lot of them.

 

[charlie b]

Switching winds are bad enough. Then you also have eddies from the air flowing over the berms on either side of the range. If you have a head wind then the target berms, and even the target boards, will create the eddies. Makes for interesting shooting. And, yes, boundary layer effects come into play on 'flat' ranges.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

360 changes are common happenings. We call them dust devils around TX. Mini tornados full of sand and dust.

We get those too! but at least with them you can see the dust and the wind. what I am talking about is unseen

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yep factory barrel. It’s a Custom shop 40XR from the 1990’s .
Haven’t noticed some short rounds are tighter. A few years ago when CX and Midas were unobtainable I remember reading guys were having good results with PK. It shoots well for me unsorted . I don’t think I ever measured PK.
I don’t compete - matches are way too far away. I’m the only one at my club shooting a rimfire bench gun.
The rifle does great for me, I’ve been able to clean the Green Monster with 11-16 X’s, the easiest score target…. I got a lot of them.

View attachment 1754384

Nice looking rifle. try sorting the PK you might be surprised on the resullts.

Lee

 

[foxguy]

OK, Now I really want to get one of these G3 MII Pro gauges so that I can Check the Match ammo that I am using to see the differences within the Box.