Prep of 22rf method?

[TAJ45]

I was sorting by rim thkns w gages, one being a PBike. Gave that up for concentricity. Now wanting to explore overall length to ogive.

Talking w several dedicated rf shooters here, one felt the rim thkns was more important than concentricity. In my mind this is a direct relation to freebore/OAL to ogive.

To check ammo with intent to OAL to ogive segregate, what gizzies are available? I have a 40X, 54, MDT to test with.

 

[wsmallwood]

I haven't sorted for rim thickness in probably more than 30 years. I tried it but never really saw a benefit. Unless RF cartridges are more consistent than the used to be it is very likely that you can get different readings simply by checking different places on the rim.

 

[TAJ45]

Allow me to be more specifice: With talk of adjusting head space by shimming the bolt, how do we measure base to ogive with end intent to engrave?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I was sorting by rim thkns w gages, one being a PBike. Gave that up for concentricity. Now wanting to explore overall length to ogive.

Talking w several dedicated rf shooters here, one felt the rim thkns was more important than concentricity. In my mind this is a direct relation to freebore/OAL to ogive.

To check ammo with intent to OAL to ogive segregate, what gizzies are available? I have a 40X, 54, MDT to test with.

There isn't anything currently being made to measure OAL from the rim face to the ogive. you can put one together from what I understand using Sinclair components not sure what components.
but this was the best one when it was being made. knowing what your barrel likes as far as OAL and the ability to remove the outliers that are way different within a specific measure range which I found to be 0.015 as the maximum spread greatly reduces the fliers from the ammo. won't make it shoot smaller but more consistent whereas to know the hold off between measured groups of OAL. it has also shown me how much Lapua has improved year after year as my last sorted ammo had only two groups of with just 0.005 spread within each group and 0.015 overall between each group. I been sorting for over 10 years now using this gauge.

I am currently trying to get a manufacturer of gun components to make these again. their current schedule is too busy to look into making it.

Lee

 

[wkdickinson]

Someone on RF Accuracy said awhile ago - "the only people who sort 22rf ammo, are those trying to make cheap ammo shoot like expensive ammo."

However as Lee notes above, he believes it is worthwhile. Since you can no longer buy that tool, you can accomplish the same thing by making a "comparitor" insert with an ID that allows the bullet to enter to the first driving band. Then measure the OAL and subtract the rim thickness.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Someone on RF Accuracy said awhile ago - "the only people who sort 22rf ammo, are those trying to make cheap ammo shoot like expensive ammo."

Cheap ammo is cheap ammo. but quality match ammo will show an improvement. last year was my best ARA UL shooting sorted ammo. I will say this with ammo being so hard to get sorting OAL at least will help with ammo bought blind. will it improve test center ammo yes, it will. if you have a lot that shoots great but has an occasional flier OAL sorting will find the source of those fliers.

Lee

 

[foxguy]

G3 MII PRO.

I would be interested in Purchasing One and give sorting a try.

 

[ArtinNC]

I don't see how the G3 MKii Pro works . I must be really slow today .

 

[TRSR8]

I was sorting by rim thkns w gages, one being a PBike. Gave that up for concentricity. Now wanting to explore overall length to ogive.

Talking w several dedicated rf shooters here, one felt the rim thkns was more important than concentricity. In my mind this is a direct relation to freebore/OAL to ogive.

To check ammo with intent to OAL to ogive segregate, what gizzies are available? I have a 40X, 54, MDT to test with.

Don't know what ammo you use, but you can take this to the bank........you're wasting your time.
All that baloney won't make mediocre ammo less so, zero impact on true match ammo, which is still lot specific, with..... it shoots or not and zero manipulations change that basic principle.
Everybody at one point screwed with rims, concentricity.......stuff now collects dust.
As far as OAL, maybe with some match bbl and/or chambers, neither of which you possess.

 

[TAJ45]

Art, as a retired toolmaker, l would think, from bottom of gage a dia maybe 2- 4 thou over for brass case, maybe tighter. From other end a bushing like insert bored to around .208-10". A non fragile wall thkns of .050" or more for handling durability. Heck, make it to nearest drill rod size to speed production.*
lt can not be thru bored as indicator needs touch point.

This fits over the .203ish nose dia but seats on the driving band shoulder. Of course a counter bored dia needs be incorporated for bushing to slide in.
Overall, a COMPARISON measurement is obtained.
Of course Cue Tips for wax n lead removal.

I checked several miscellaneous rounds and came up w .203 nose dia at band juncture and .222-.223 for driving band.
I did check some Red Box bases....all 10 were same so stopped checking.

* There l go thinking manual machining. Two passes at most to get the slip fit dia w CNC and less expense for mat'l. ;

 

[Jerry Halcomb]

There isn't anything currently being made to measure OAL from the rim face to the ogive. you can put one together from what I understand using Sinclair components not sure what components.
but this was the best one when it was being made. knowing what your barrel likes as far as OAL and the ability to remove the outliers that are way different within a specific measure range which I found to be 0.015 as the maximum spread greatly reduces the fliers from the ammo. won't make it shoot smaller but more consistent whereas to know the hold off between measured groups of OAL. it has also shown me how much Lapua has improved year after year as my last sorted ammo had only two groups of with just 0.005 spread within each group and 0.015 overall between each group. I been sorting for over 10 years now using this gauge.
View attachment 1752893
I am currently trying to get a manufacturer of gun components to make these again. their current schedule is too busy to look into making it.

Lee

Lee
Does this device have different shaped “plunger” for different brands of ammo? It may not matter? Can you describe or make a drawing of the internals?
This appears to be similar to a device used by some that Mr Boland from TN designed to measure “stickout” from a rimfire barrel chamber. That device used the barrel breech face as the anvil.
The only problem I see is with some ammo wax build up quickly skews results.
I’ve thought about using an a barrel chambered without a throat, where the ammo would seat fully to a rim recess. This would measure overall length variation but would not account for differences in ogive nor brass length.
I’ve tried measuring OAL with a barrel stub setup like a chamber but within the same lot. Differences in length didn’t seem to matter on OnTarget mean radius results within a lot. Ammo Lot differences seem to trump all.
Jerry

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Lee
Does this device have different shaped “plunger” for different brands of ammo? It may not matter? Can you describe or make a drawing of the internals?
This appears to be similar to a device used by some that Mr Boland from TN designed to measure “stickout” from a rimfire barrel chamber. That device used the barrel breech face as the anvil.
The only problem I see is with some ammo wax build up quickly skews results.
I’ve thought about using an a barrel chambered without a throat, where the ammo would seat fully to a rim recess. This would measure overall length variation but would not account for differences in ogive nor brass length.
I’ve tried measuring OAL with a barrel stub setup like a chamber but within the same lot. Differences in length didn’t seem to matter on OnTarget mean radius results within a lot. Ammo Lot differences seem to trump all.
Jerry

Hi Jerry,

Here is what the main measuring part looks like. I measured Eley with no issues. if the ammo being measured has 0.015 or less spread between rounds there would be a very small difference. what I seen is the hold being of such where a shot is a line liker or a 100. but the most important is finding those really out of spec rounds that would be a 25 you know those that you scratch your head thinking WTH!

 

[Tony K Harper]

Years ago, when I was chasing everything, I thought was worth winning I built this tool. May or may not have been legal but it didn't matter. It didn't help anyway.

If you study, the picture you can see I could spin the bullets and measure the rifling engagement. As a bonus I could cut the bullet so as it engaged the same place regardless of its length.

The other pictures are of Mike Boland's tool. You can see what it was for.

TKH

 

[TRSR8]

Lee
Does this device have different shaped “plunger” for different brands of ammo? It may not matter? Can you describe or make a drawing of the internals?
This appears to be similar to a device used by some that Mr Boland from TN designed to measure “stickout” from a rimfire barrel chamber. That device used the barrel breech face as the anvil.
The only problem I see is with some ammo wax build up quickly skews results.
I’ve thought about using an a barrel chambered without a throat, where the ammo would seat fully to a rim recess. This would measure overall length variation but would not account for differences in ogive nor brass length.
I’ve tried measuring OAL with a barrel stub setup like a chamber but within the same lot. Differences in length didn’t seem to matter on OnTarget mean radius results within a lot. Ammo Lot differences seem to trump all.
Jerry

Jerry
Gordon Eck made me one similar to your thought, located on front edge of drive brand.
Even back when everything was ELEY with their lube, a slight twist got you to metal. This seemed best to avoid variables of "how far into throat" would create.
Personally, with his chambers, never saw big variance throughout boxes, even with lot to lot OAL that could push .010".
May very well be attributed to the fact he often altered stickout depending on rate of carbon/lead build.
I've always suspected this can be barrel specific, especially related to MI configurations.
If you remember BC used to do mostly MI's, and drone on about ELEY publishing OAL specs because he did a lot of guns chambered for specific lots.
Tim

 

[Jerry Halcomb]

Tim
You’re right he did use one lot and complained he hoped ammo in question would outlast him.
I get the “twist” to get to a reasonable identical place on a bullet.
My question remains how much time is wasted? I was hoping that tracking length would help identify lots that work well in my barrel.
I give one example of my frustration. Two lots from the same eley machine within a couple of numbers of each other, made on the same day according to analyser. One would think these would be close as two lots could be. They appear to have a lot, excuse the pun, in common according to eley! They couldn’t be further from each other lengthwise!
Jerry

 

[Jerry Halcomb]

Years ago, when I was chasing everything, I thought was worth winning I built this tool. May or may not have been legal but it didn't matter. It didn't help anyway.

If you study, the picture you can see I could spin the bullets and measure the rifling engagement. As a bonus I could cut the bullet so as it engaged the same place regardless of its length.

The other pictures are of Mike Boland's tool. You can see what it was for.

TKH

Tony
Thanks for your pics and this nice discussion!
Jerry

 

[Jerry Halcomb]

Hi Jerry,

Here is what the main measuring part looks like. I measured Eley with no issues. if the ammo being measured has 0.015 or less spread between rounds there would be a very small difference. what I seen is the hold being of such where a shot is a line liker or a 100. but the most important is finding those really out of spec rounds that would be a 25 you know those that you scratch your head thinking WTH!
View attachment 1753639
View attachment 1753640

Lee
Great pics and details. This is a good discussion.
Jerry

 

[TRSR8]

Tim
You’re right he did use one lot and complained he hoped ammo in question would outlast him.
I get the “twist” to get to a reasonable identical place on a bullet.
My question remains how much time is wasted? I was hoping that tracking length would help identify lots that work well in my barrel.
I give one example of my frustration. Two lots from the same eley machine within a couple of numbers of each other, made on the same day according to analyser. One would think these would be close as two lots could be. They appear to have a lot, excuse the pun, in common according to eley! They couldn’t be further from each other lengthwise!
Jerry

Jerry,
I must be blessed, although I have shot little ELEY in recent years, still have some of the great 2012 6 machine.
Have some buds going with current ELEY but, personally, cannot say. Used to be good within a lot but pretty good spread within lots
Currently have 4 lots of Midas been shooting and in spite of all the posts have not seen anything I would call a true flyer. Shot as many as 3 lots on an IR card….. POI within a bullet or less.
Really don’t do much OAL these days, did not seem to matter with some, 7-8 barrels, 3 smiths on my guns.
Tim

 

[1911nut]

I sorted Center X with the G3 base to ogive tool. Separating the longs and shorts reduced fliers, resulted in more consistent groups and a few more points on the score targets.

 

[TRSR8]

I sorted Center X with the G3 base to ogive tool. Separating the longs and shorts reduced fliers, resulted in more consistent groups and a few more points on the score targets.

Now, not to pick on you, however, first off nobody articulates what exactly we’re calling a flier. Seems lots of guys whose shot doesn’t center punch a target…..must be a flier.Across most forums, far too many blame ammo instead of missed condition.
Also in the absence of exhaustive testing and documentation, far greater probability it’s condition.