Retired, from machining parts to refuel Neclear reactors, across the US and 1 in Mexico. 3 mile Island to Savanah River to the N reactor in Washington St. Nuclear bomb reactors for 15 yrs until decommissioned by DOD, but mostly commercial nucler reactors for electricity production, submarine, defense, missile parts, cluster bombs, aerospace, and super conductor materials 24 yrs, from highly controlled rare metals and alloys not available to the public, and 11 yrs in semiconductor/ robotics manufacturing.
"Preferred Barrel Blanks" Vendor -- Opinions
- Thread starter ArtinNC
- Start date
Know this is an old thread, but.....
Stay far far far away from this company. I am playing hell with them right now (30 plus emails back and forth with tons of pics sent of the inside of the barrel). Imperfections on the rifling (all the way from breech to muzzle, and not from my smith but from the factory), paid to have it lapped. They have even said that it will need to come back, because of their machining imperfections. But won't refund the smith costs and the cost to have the barrel taken off to send it back. Their solution is, 1st point fingers at my smith, (my smith has a high moral standard and has been building winning rifles since 1984) and that I should have purchased a pre-fit from them.....
2. Or send them the rifle so they can just build it for me.
Once I sent PBB my smiths pedigree, (because PBB was pointing their finger at his workmanship, a red herring mind you) the next email stated, it has to come back.
Now they want me to pay for the barrel to be removed and or just send them the rifle and they will rebarrel it. Um no, I have a smith I trust, and no one else will do that work for me. Also they sent out an inferior product, so I'm positive they can't build a decent rifle anyway.
Stand behind your product, all business owners know you win and lose sometimes. The BBB will hear about this one and if that doesn't work than small claims I guess. I'll only be following this course of action because they have been nothing but difficult and not taking ownership of their inferior product. Its like dealing with children who have been spoiled and have never had to deal with the hardships in life.
Stay far far far away from this company. I am playing hell with them right now (30 plus emails back and forth with tons of pics sent of the inside of the barrel). Imperfections on the rifling (all the way from breech to muzzle, and not from my smith but from the factory), paid to have it lapped. They have even said that it will need to come back, because of their machining imperfections. But won't refund the smith costs and the cost to have the barrel taken off to send it back. Their solution is, 1st point fingers at my smith, (my smith has a high moral standard and has been building winning rifles since 1984) and that I should have purchased a pre-fit from them.....
2. Or send them the rifle so they can just build it for me.
Once I sent PBB my smiths pedigree, (because PBB was pointing their finger at his workmanship, a red herring mind you) the next email stated, it has to come back.
Now they want me to pay for the barrel to be removed and or just send them the rifle and they will rebarrel it. Um no, I have a smith I trust, and no one else will do that work for me. Also they sent out an inferior product, so I'm positive they can't build a decent rifle anyway.
Stand behind your product, all business owners know you win and lose sometimes. The BBB will hear about this one and if that doesn't work than small claims I guess. I'll only be following this course of action because they have been nothing but difficult and not taking ownership of their inferior product. Its like dealing with children who have been spoiled and have never had to deal with the hardships in life.
Last edited:
I don't trust their smiths, heck they sent me a barrel that they say is not up to par and it needs to come back, a barrel they made and sent out as "good", so...... plus it's a royal PITA to send a firearm in the mail, especially in Delaware.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
So your smith borescoped it after doing his work?
My smith did check. The imperfections are uniform on the tops of the lands. So he said its probably normal, I contacted PBB about it and asked if it is OK. They said to send it back. All I wanted from PBB was an answer, but they instantly began pointing their fingers at my smith. Shady business practices on PBB, it's sad.
Attachments
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
So the barrel folks said send it back, but your smith said that it is probably OK? Is this the same barrel that you had trouble with "McGowen" that you also posted?
Last edited:
jelenko
Gold $$ Contributor
I'm not getting it.
You trust your smith. Your smith said the marks were normal. But the barrel is bad? And you trust your smith?
My take is the vendor is just trying to make it right for a customer.
Its this timeline correct?
1. You ordered a blank from PBB and sent it directly to your smith
2. Your smith received the new blank and scopes it and finds issues, but he says it should be ok
3. You contact PBB and they say send it back
4. Your smith decides to do work on it instead of sending it back
Or is this the order?
1. You ordered a blank from PBB and sent it directly to your smith
2. Your smith received the new blank and scopes it and finds issues, but he says it should be ok
3. Your smith decides to do work on it instead of sending it back
4. You contact PBB and they say send it back
1. You ordered a blank from PBB and sent it directly to your smith
2. Your smith received the new blank and scopes it and finds issues, but he says it should be ok
3. You contact PBB and they say send it back
4. Your smith decides to do work on it instead of sending it back
Or is this the order?
1. You ordered a blank from PBB and sent it directly to your smith
2. Your smith received the new blank and scopes it and finds issues, but he says it should be ok
3. Your smith decides to do work on it instead of sending it back
4. You contact PBB and they say send it back
SBS
Gold $$ Contributor
And they took awhile to break in. I've had a number of Douglas barrels, mostly before the current mfg. of cut rifled barrels were in business. All of them took up to 100 rounds before they shot well and didn't foul so much. Borescopes affordable to the public were none existent then, so we didn't know what they looked like inside. HP shooters were used to having to break in a barrel and considered it normal. New military barrels like 03's took up to 200 rds. Now with better machining and lapped barrels, when the chamber throat is "broken in" with a small number of rounds, the barrel shoots well.
The only button rifled manufacturer I have watched produce barrels is Shilen. The 1st time I was there, they did not lap barrels between reaming and rifling. Not only watched it being done, but asked twice if they lapped before rifling and was told no. Wasn't trying to provoke them, just curious about their process. A few years later, I was there with other onlookers and now they were lapping before and after rifling. As Sherm says, circular reamer marks will still be there in the rifling if not lapped out before button rifling, particularly prominent on the lands. You only have to look at Savage barrels with all the machine marks perpendicular to the bore. They generally shoot well, but fouling is a problem, particularly early on. Shilen changed the process I'm sure to be competitive with other barrel companies and their barrels are better because of it. I have a number of them now and they shoot very well and clean up well. Never watched cut rifling being done, but they are certainly successful in dealing with reamer marks as we can see with our borescopes.
It's not the same barrel, this one was made by preferred barrel blanks. I should have just gotten a tried and true brand. But I figured for a hunting rifle it wouldn't matter so much, and maybe it doesn't. I have only 20 down the tube to season it. I got 1.5" groups fireforming and shooting crap bullets. So it could possibly be a shooter, but I've never had a 5R barrel and none of my other rifles have the raised bosses down the lands. They may wear down over time, but could this have intermittent good and bad precision? That was my 1st question to PBB, but they instantly went to pointing fingers (this set me on edge and puts a bad taste in my mouth). Ultimately the quality control aspect of this falls squarely on PBB, I know my smith should have seen this, but he doesn't deal with low end barrels. I won't name him for obvious reasons. But he has built some winners.
I should have learned my lesson about buying from low end companies. I also know a blind hog will find an acorn now and then, so of course there are gonna be reviews of how great the low enders are. For a hunting rifle, I was willing to take the chance. I mean 1.5" ain't bad though, but I wanted assurance that as the barrel wears in it'll stay kinda consistent, this was my only concern, I expected PBB to be able to field that question with solid answers. But I guess not.
I also know that they offered a "solution" but I didn't originally contract them to build a rifle for me, nor did I order a pre-fit. So they should honor my original game plan of using an accomplished gun smith, not their in-house smiths (that built the sub par barrel to start with)
I'm no smith, but I have extensive NASCAR race engine building knowledge, along with centrifugal, reciprocal and screw compressor rebuilds. I'm also an HVAC engineer, so know when I see what's sub par, or could be sub par, although sometimes I reach out to the "experts" to figure out specific items such as this.
Last edited:
Where are the imperfections? 5R barrels can give you problems chambering if you don't know what you are doing. The reamer will push off of the lands and make marks or deformities.
ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
A couple thoughts, if I may.
1. 30+ years ago I watched a couple cut rifled barrels being done. A muzzle loader barrel builder named Bill Large. Smooth as a baby's butt. A ML builder just finished a Percussion J&S style Hawken rifle with my last Bill Large barrel. UPS has it somewhere between Tennessee and Idaho. Mirror smooth finish.
2. I also own Schuetzen rifles barreled from scratch by Pope, Schoyen/Petersen (which one?), and one by Zischang after he left C. Sharps (the original company). Despite being shot with perhaps thousands of .32" lead spitzer bullets at 1400/1600fps, they remain shiny and smooth.
3. I honed a couple barrels using the NECO fire lapping tool kit. Fine grit coated pure lead bullets at 1200+/- MV. All shot more accurately after the process. Five rounds each at 220, 400, and 800grit.
Match accuracy from Schuetzen rifles, under 2" for ten shots at 200 yards. Both of my Miller actioned rifles Dean Miller built me had his lapped Douglas 8mm barrels. They shot better than I could hope to shoot.
I would opine that steel alloy varies too much in composition and heat treat to quantify accuracy across the board.
ISS
1. 30+ years ago I watched a couple cut rifled barrels being done. A muzzle loader barrel builder named Bill Large. Smooth as a baby's butt. A ML builder just finished a Percussion J&S style Hawken rifle with my last Bill Large barrel. UPS has it somewhere between Tennessee and Idaho. Mirror smooth finish.
2. I also own Schuetzen rifles barreled from scratch by Pope, Schoyen/Petersen (which one?), and one by Zischang after he left C. Sharps (the original company). Despite being shot with perhaps thousands of .32" lead spitzer bullets at 1400/1600fps, they remain shiny and smooth.
3. I honed a couple barrels using the NECO fire lapping tool kit. Fine grit coated pure lead bullets at 1200+/- MV. All shot more accurately after the process. Five rounds each at 220, 400, and 800grit.
Match accuracy from Schuetzen rifles, under 2" for ten shots at 200 yards. Both of my Miller actioned rifles Dean Miller built me had his lapped Douglas 8mm barrels. They shot better than I could hope to shoot.
I would opine that steel alloy varies too much in composition and heat treat to quantify accuracy across the board.
ISS
TRSR8
Silver $$ Contributor
FWIW, More than one custom button rifle shop has got their reaming to the point where they don’t need to lap between reaming and rifling.
Last edited:
L.Sherm
Silver $$ Contributor
I'm not saying they don't but I want my lapping the same direction the bullet travels.
They final lap Cut barrels for a reason too.
My statement you quoted had more to do with if there is any tooling marks there before the button is rifled they will be there after also.
L.Sherm
Silver $$ Contributor
You pretty much summed it up Will, what matters is the target.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Sir, The final lap goes in and out.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.