Precision Progressive

[FireKracker50]

I do a fair amount of reloading. However I am not a competition shooter so I don't reload to that volume. But I do reload for myself, as well as 4 other people.
I size most everything on a forester co-ax, most of my bullet seating is with LE Wilson Chamber inline seaters on arbor press. And powder weighed to 0.02gr accuracy.

However things like 9mm, 223, 45acp, 454 casual, 45/70, that i either load larger volumes of or am not concerned with precision on just use press mounted seater and some of those ill use a cheap lee press for brass prep if I'm not concerned with having as much control. And either drop powder or use chargemaster.

I would like to be able to decrease the time to load 9mm and 223, as well as be able to load 224 Valk and 7 WSM in larger volumes but maintain a reasonable amount of control and turn out ammo nearly as consistent as my current process. I am willing to settle for ball powders in like AA No7 and the staball line of powders for better drop metering in the high volume loadings.

Ill still continue to load most calibers and specialty higher precision ammo using my current processes.

If I was only looking to churn out 9mm I think I would just get a lee progressive press and dress it up with a bunch of accessories. However I'd like to dual purpose the progressive for larger volumes of higher precision ammo as well.

The 2 presses I have looked into the most are the Dillon xl750 with case feed, Mr bullet mini feeder, as well as the quick change tool head and caliber changover kit for 9mm, 223, 224 Valk (however i havent found that or 6.8 spc), and 7WSM.
Ive also looked into the Hornady LnL ammo plant as it seems like a rather turn key solution.

Which will give me the best ammo consistency?
Will I sacrifice precision with the Hornady LnL Ammo plant over the XL750?
Are there other press options i should be considering that would be a better fit for my needs?

Thanks everyone for your time and opinions.

 

[ELR LVR]

I use a Dillon 650, (750 equivalent)
And same with you I have on occasion developed loads for friends and then spit some out in high volume for say .308
One of those buddies didnt trust the high volume aspect since I was loading for him
and he wanted to use the loads out to 1000 yds
I asked him to come over and watch me load some of his rounds
With Ball Powder yes
After settling the powder by throwing a few
it was consistent over 10 in a row within +/- 0.1 grain
he said" ok well, i trust them if YOU are doing them then"
I said it dont matter who pulls the lever, the Dillon powder dispenser works great
And kept proceeding to spit out the same powder charge and then let him try etc
----------------
I wonder how consistent Military .308 M118 Match rounds are in that aspect?
----------------
I like my Dillon I must say
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For pistol it is usually within 3/10ths grn
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The hopper should be kept full the the same level of powder though
---------------
I would weight check every 10th round to ensure the consitency you want

 

[FireKracker50]

+/- 0.1gr is sufficient for the rifle cartridges I would use it for.
I fully intend to load my 500+ yard stuff with my current process. And I don't do any shooting currently over 1000yrds. So I'm probably way more anal than I need to be.
And for handgun stuff I'm really not concerned with how precise it is. But 3/10ths does seem like kind of a wide range when the load is so small. My drum style powder dropper is usually +/-0.1gr so ES is about 0.2gr typically on it. I was concerned with the slider bar style on the dillion not being as accurate as a drum style. I guess that is 1 perk of the hornady. However I've never owned one of thier powder droppers so I don't know how accurate they are.

 

[FireKracker50]

What about runout and seating depth consistency?
And what dies do you run in your dillon?
I have a plethora of dies from nearly all manufacturers. However the majority are Redding S-type FL resizers. I just rarely use thier bullet seaters. I've grown to love the LE Wilson seaters and seating with arbor press.
If there's a die brand or type that lends itself to better consistency on progressives im open to purchasing them vs the seaters that came with most of my FL sizer. I think i have an rcbs matchmaster 224 valk, hornady custom micrometer, several standard redding, maybe a forester or 2, and some lee seaters. That never get used.

 

[ELR LVR]

What about runout and seating depth consistency?
And what dies do you run in your dillon?
I have a plethora of dies from nearly all manufacturers. However the majority are Redding S-type FL resizers. I just rarely use thier bullet seaters. I've grown to love the LE Wilson seaters and seating with arbor press.
If there's a die brand or type that lends itself to better consistency on progressives im open to purchasing them vs the seaters that came with most of my FL sizer. I think i have an rcbs matchmaster 224 valk, hornady custom micrometer, several standard redding, maybe a forester or 2, and some lee seaters. That never get used.

The 3/10 grain in pistol is more when I use the flake powder sometimes.
Which does not meter as consitently as Ball, or if you are going fast and rough with the handle pumping them out at 300 rnds /hr (which I do with 9/40/45.
I'm not bullseye shooting with my Semi pistols, but more shooting plates
in 9mm I usually get 2 inch groups at 20 yds with it in a Glock 19 with 125's
Approx 5 to 5.5 grns is the load but I'd have to double check that.
---------------
If I go slower and easy with the handle it may even out better,
Which is how I do for rifle just due to the longer cases
so i dont mind if I can bust a bunch out for a practice session, I dont load them hot to begin with so 3/10th over dont hurt for myself.
But I do understand your concern in that, Just my experience is all
---------------
The rifle dies I have run in the Dillon are RCBS standard FL Dies
I prefer Redding Match dies though when I single stage load, Or Forster Micrometer type
Runout is great when seating with the dillon and is as straight as my RCBS Rockchucker.
I mean the Ram is beefy on a DIllon so wont flex
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I load for 223 on the Dillon also, and set it to drop powder at 25 grns and can run 26 grns no problem
So if I get a slight heavier load of even 0.5 grns it is not an issue at all
It usually doesn't go low, if anything it may swing on the heavier side since powder settles more with bumps and jars.
So pick your middle of the road weight charge for average.
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It can handle loads the same as if you single stage which is going slow, placing a bullet in straight, easing the handle upward so you dont jar the whole table which will settle powder deeper into the powder measure.
---------------
So yeah if you treat it like a singe stage it will be even more consitent than if you treat it like an ammo manufacturing machine that should be plugged into the wall lol
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Tell ya what, I'll see what I got set up in it right now and run some powder charges and runout tests over a 20 lot sample and report back tomorrow by the slow and easy method, I don't wish to give out inaccurate or misleading info

 

[FireKracker50]

Thank you so much for all the help and great info.
Just going off gut feeling, I feel like the Dillon may give the least runnout. But the hornady may give the more consistent powder throw.
What im unsure of is how much of a difference there is in either one.
And how much experimenting either different die brands and styles may improve or hurt your runout with these style presses.
Are you running a mandrel after sizing, or running with the expander ball or carbide floating expander ring?

 

[ELR LVR]

Thank you so much for all the help and great info.
Just going off gut feeling, I feel like the Dillon may give the least runnout. But the hornady may give the more consistent powder throw.
What im unsure of is how much of a difference there is in either one.
And how much experimenting either different die brands and styles may improve or hurt your runout with these style presses.
Are you running a mandrel after sizing, or running with the expander ball or carbide floating expander ring?

Im using expander ball mostly, however with somewhat light neck tension
I can say with this method my 6x284 rounds usually are less than .003" runout
and many do not have more than .001" runout.
But different brass has different springiness to it, such as Lapua
What I do like very much with the dillon slider bar style meassure is...
There is no hangups or kernel crunching which always seems to be a nuisance with my Drum powder measure
If you use anything like 4350

 

[FireKracker50]

Yeah i have pretty much come to terms with the fact that my loads with varget, 4350,4831, N560, etc I'll just weigh out and continue to load as I do now.

My high volume stuff i have loads with lt-32 and cfe223 for 223, for 224 valk staball match and cfe223, 7WSM staball 6.5 and ramshot magnum, and 9mm AA No7. All drop great in drum style.

 

[SecondsCount]

I load my 223 on a Dillon 550B and 9mm on a 650 with a case feeder.

The 223 gets processed in 2 steps. Step 1- spray lube, size and deprime. Off press, I trim and debur, then tumble to get lube off. Step 2- is prime, powder, and seat. Powder is usually with the Dillon measure, but I have a little funnel setup to go in the press to precisely weigh and throw charges into the powder charging station.

Using Ramshot TAC and Hornady 68 BTHP, I can hold 1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Not benchrest groups, but good enough for what I am doing.

 

[FireKracker50]

Whats your thoughts/opinions on 550B/C versus the 650/750?
Any opinions on auto indexing vs manual indexing, etc?
Quality of ammo from 550 vs 650?

 

[ISS]

I have an elderly friend who was using a 550 (manual index) to load everything. A couple weeks ago he stopped by on the way to the range with some ammunition he had loaded. I scaled it and he had managed to double charge some 45-70 for his Shiloh Sharps. It might have injured him along with the rifle. Shame to lose a $5300 rifle he waited four years for, and maybe some body parts.
He's ordered a 750. I have one that I use for everything I load rifle ammunition for. Got a 1050 for 9mm mostly.
If I were shooting competition, I might go to a Harrel or Hood single stage press. I have a Harrel 4-stage I will use for my Rockchuck rifles. 6-284 and 257 Banshee, since I hope to shoot out to 1000 yards or more.

Go Blue, and never look back!

ISS

 

[DDRanch]

For my super precision reloading I use a Forester Co-Ax.
Everything else is on on Blue, 550's for small runs, 750 for 9mm/40S&W. 1050's for 223, 308 and 45ACP.

 

[jk80]

I was only looking to churn out 9mm I think I would just get a lee progressive press and dress it up

Had a lee progressive 1000 on my bench for two days. Note I said HAD!! Biggest pos i ever had. Sent it down the road and bought a 550. Now have two on my bench. Don't think you'll dislike the 550's.

 

[ELR LVR]

Whats your thoughts/opinions on 550B/C versus the 650/750?
Any opinions on auto indexing vs manual indexing, etc?
Quality of ammo from 550 vs 650?

I have some results for you here
------------------------------------
Firstly, I like my 650 for the extra station (Powder check) or any extra dies you want to use such as for pistol
----------------------------------------------------------------
1. FL Size 2. Powder dump which also neck expands
3. Powder check 4. Bullet seat 5. Bullet Crimp
----------------------------------------------------------------
That extra 5th station cmes in handy for using an extra crimp die
And a 650/750 is faster than a manual indexer for sure.
I suppose it would depend on how much you are going to use it
I will say mine seems to be well made with good (tight) tolerances
But if anything is out of whack in adjustment it can be frustrating until you figure out
However there are adjustments provided for everything to tune it in perfectly.

People with a 550 seem to be happy with theirs
------------------------------------
20 run test with .223 RP brass (Once fired range brass)
Brass has been trimmed and chamfered
The scale I used is a Lyman... tuned by me
Sensitive to 1/2 of 0.1 grain
------------------------------------
I will include pics of everything I am talking sbout here
------------------------------------
First let me say the 3/10 swing in powder was the "EXTREME"
Not 3/10 difference from charge to charge
but more as you kept loading the powder would stay very consitent and slowly start increasing in weight little by little
Likely due to the powder in the hopper settling little by little and becoming more dense
So weighing every 10 rounds or so to make a small adjustment to correct
0.1 grn increases as you go is necessary if you are concerned about that.
------------------------------------
Also when powder dispensing, it takes a certain amount of time for the full charge to drop into the 223 case
As we know the faster you go... time slows down, so you must account for this
I give it 3 seconds for every case, otherwise if you push the lever back up too soon you will spill powder as it is still flowing through its funnel.
------------------------------------
I put some powder in the Hopper using W-748 and dumped 2 charges to equalize
Then ran a 20 run test. Weights shown are in grains
1. 24.9 6. 24.8 11. 25.0 16. didnt weigh
2. 25.0 7. 24.8 12. didnt weigh 17. didnt weigh
3 25.1 8. 24.9 13. didnt weigh 18. 25.2
4 25.1 9. 24.9 14. didnt weigh 19. 25.1
5 24.9 10. 24.9 15. 25.1 20. 25.2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I started to get in the groove and a few times forgot to weigh every charge lol.
As we can see here the charge weight started at 24.9 and slowly worked its way up to
25.2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Next I used Titegroup ....a flake powder and charged some 9mm pistol cases
I only ran 10 because it remained so consistent
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I dumped 3 charges to settle the powder then ran the test
1. 7.7 6. 7.8
2. 7.7 7. 7.7
3. 7.7 8. 7.7
4. 7.7 9. 7.8
5. 7.7 10. 7.8
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I measured Runout for 10 rounds on the 223 ammo loaded
Die used was a Dillon 223 seater die
next station also after seating was a crimp die and put a bullet crimp on
These were 55 FMJ bullets used, so not the best bullets but I was curious
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I used a DIllon .223 Bullet seater
3 had runout of .010"
7 had runout of .004-.005"
One case had an indent that needs to be blown out and even it measured .004"
These are rounds to be used in a gas gun so I'm not too concerned about runout
If I were concerned ,,,, I would single stage load
------------------------------------------------------
Next I wanted to see how 4350 would meter
it did not work out well...at all... haha
that long stick powder dumped one light undercharge then stopped up the works
------------------------------------------------------
I'll explain the pics provided
1. The Lyman scale used for this test
2 Lyman scale reading perfect on the money when the charge is perfect
3. Lyman scale showing 2/10 gr light
4. showing 1/2 of 1/10th grn of powder in the spoon to be added, next to Small primer
5. Lyman showing resolution of 1/2 of 1/10th grn
6. Amount if powder used in Hopper for each test

 

[ELR LVR]

1. Showing different charge bars used for pistol and rifle
2. Showing close tolerances of charge bar to powder dispenser, powder does not come out
3. Showing Thicker Powder Charge bar to accomodate Large Cases
4. Concentricity checker, even with dented case was .004"
5. I like Dillons 650 Individual primer carriages for Small and Large primers
6. H4350 Powder Stoppage

 

[bozo699]

You might have been more consistent if your hopper was full of powder
Wayne

 

[ELR LVR]

I have an elderly friend who was using a 550 (manual index) to load everything. A couple weeks ago he stopped by on the way to the range with some ammunition he had loaded. I scaled it and he had managed to double charge some 45-70 for his Shiloh Sharps. It might have injured him along with the rifle. Shame to lose a $5300 rifle he waited four years for, and maybe some body parts.
He's ordered a 750. I have one that I use for everything I load rifle ammunition for. Got a 1050 for 9mm mostly.
If I were shooting competition, I might go to a Harrel or Hood single stage press. I have a Harrel 4-stage I will use for my Rockchuck rifles. 6-284 and 257 Banshee, since I hope to shoot out to 1000 yards or more.

Go Blue, and never look back!

ISS

This is a good point regarding one difference between a 550 and 650/750
Kind of hard to double charge with an auto indexer
.(you know, stop to use the bathroom, come back, loose your place, get back in the rythm again and one charge gets doubled)

 

[BHP9]

I've been running a Dillon 1050 Super for 19 years and load 9mm, 38Sp, 40S&W and 45ACP, all dies, powder measures and bullet feeder drop tubes on their own toolhead.

All loads are made to a power factor that I like.

For powder drop consistency I mount a aquarium bubbler to the hopper.

All of my rifle loads are done on an RCBS RockChuker from the 1970"s with weighed powder charges, one at a time.

 

[FireKracker50]

I have some results for you here
------------------------------------
Firstly, I like my 650 for the extra station (Powder check) or any extra dies you want to use such as for pistol
----------------------------------------------------------------
1. FL Size 2. Powder dump which also neck expands
3. Powder check 4. Bullet seat 5. Bullet Crimp
----------------------------------------------------------------
That extra 5th station cmes in handy for using an extra crimp die
And a 650/750 is faster than a manual indexer for sure.
I suppose it would depend on how much you are going to use it
I will say mine seems to be well made with good (tight) tolerances
But if anything is out of whack in adjustment it can be frustrating until you figure out
However there are adjustments provided for everything to tune it in perfectly.

People with a 550 seem to be happy with theirs
------------------------------------
20 run test with .223 RP brass (Once fired range brass)
Brass has been trimmed and chamfered
The scale I used is a Lyman... tuned by me
Sensitive to 1/2 of 0.1 grain
------------------------------------
I will include pics of everything I am talking sbout here
------------------------------------
First let me say the 3/10 swing in powder was the "EXTREME"
Not 3/10 difference from charge to charge
but more as you kept loading the powder would stay very consitent and slowly start increasing in weight little by little
Likely due to the powder in the hopper settling little by little and becoming more dense
So weighing every 10 rounds or so to make a small adjustment to correct
0.1 grn increases as you go is necessary if you are concerned about that.
------------------------------------
Also when powder dispensing, it takes a certain amount of time for the full charge to drop into the 223 case
As we know the faster you go... time slows down, so you must account for this
I give it 3 seconds for every case, otherwise if you push the lever back up too soon you will spill powder as it is still flowing through its funnel.
------------------------------------
I put some powder in the Hopper using W-748 and dumped 2 charges to equalize
Then ran a 20 run test. Weights shown are in grains
1. 24.9 6. 24.8 11. 25.0 16. didnt weigh
2. 25.0 7. 24.8 12. didnt weigh 17. didnt weigh
3 25.1 8. 24.9 13. didnt weigh 18. 25.2
4 25.1 9. 24.9 14. didnt weigh 19. 25.1
5 24.9 10. 24.9 15. 25.1 20. 25.2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I started to get in the groove and a few times forgot to weigh every charge lol.
As we can see here the charge weight started at 24.9 and slowly worked its way up to
25.2
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Next I used Titegroup ....a flake powder and charged some 9mm pistol cases
I only ran 10 because it remained so consistent
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I dumped 3 charges to settle the powder then ran the test
1. 7.7 6. 7.8
2. 7.7 7. 7.7
3. 7.7 8. 7.7
4. 7.7 9. 7.8
5. 7.7 10. 7.8
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I measured Runout for 10 rounds on the 223 ammo loaded
Die used was a Dillon 223 seater die
next station also after seating was a crimp die and put a bullet crimp on
These were 55 FMJ bullets used, so not the best bullets but I was curious
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I used a DIllon .223 Bullet seater
3 had runout of .010"
7 had runout of .004-.005"
One case had an indent that needs to be blown out and even it measured .004"
These are rounds to be used in a gas gun so I'm not too concerned about runout
If I were concerned ,,,, I would single stage load
------------------------------------------------------
Next I wanted to see how 4350 would meter
it did not work out well...at all... haha
that long stick powder dumped one light undercharge then stopped up the works
------------------------------------------------------
I'll explain the pics provided
1. The Lyman scale used for this test
2 Lyman scale reading perfect on the money when the charge is perfect
3. Lyman scale showing 2/10 gr light
4. showing 1/2 of 1/10th grn of powder in the spoon to be added, next to Small primer
5. Lyman showing resolution of 1/2 of 1/10th grn
6. Amount if powder used in Hopper for each test

Thank you so much for taking the time and doing this. This is a huge help to me.

 

[ELR LVR]

You might have been more consistent if your hopper was full of powder
Wayne

I agree, but the baffle seems to not show much of a difference as long as there is approx 1 inch of powder in the hopper tube.
I did fill it light though, one can only had that much powder (748)
So I put about the same amount of the pistol powder for the test run which didnt seem to affect it much at all.
I attribute it to the internal baffle
--------------------------------------------
When actual reloading no matter how much powder is added to the hopper I still check weight about every 10th round and adjust if needed
--------------------------------------------
The worst part is more when the charges start going light for not double checking things
(Not adding more powder) more than the charges slightly increasing 0.1 gr over time