Possible to Better This?

[T-shooter]

I don't always agree with the books but it's a good starting point. If you use the exact same cases, seating depth, chamber, temperature, and barrel length as they tested with, you should be close. Most all of the listed loads for a .223 are for a .223 chamber. For a Wylde, a 5.56 chamber, or a bolt action, they aren't even close. Several years ago I went with Hodgdon's specs once working up a load for a .308, starting light and going up in 1/2 grain increments. 45.9g of IMR4064 was their max with a 168g bullet. At 44.5 I started seeing injector marks on the case (didn't notice while firing, my mistake for not checking) and at 45.0g, (only fired one) it was substantially louder, kicked maybe 20% more, and the case enlarged so much the primer fell out. I think these cases were from Magtec M-80 rounds. I found out later that the case capacity is smaller than most. But using a .208g A-Max and Hornady cases, I went past their max load (in .02g steps) with no issues and with the increased loads, the velocity peaked and started dropping off.

For anyone, never start out with close to a maximum load. It can be dangerous. Work up in small steps. Temperature, case capacity, bullet seating depth, primer type, crimping the bullet, bullet bearing surface length and hardness of the copper, cases that are sized too short or too long, the rifling in the barrel, and the chamber dimensions in your rifle all have a major effect on pressure.

 

[Thumb]

It's definitely got potential. Have you got any IMR4064? If so, work up to about 36.0 grains with it and the bullet between just touching and .010 off.

OK, I made a modified case so I could check the chamber/OAL/ogive I forget what you call it to where the bullet touches the lands. Anyway, I consistently measured 2.089" which means I would have a COAL of 2.495" touching and of course 2.485 @ .010" off the lands. Does that sound about right?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

OK, I made a modified case so I could check the chamber/OAL/ogive I forget what you call it to where the bullet touches the lands. Anyway, I consistently measured 2.089" which means I would have a COAL of 2.495" touching and of course 2.485 @ .010" off the lands. Does that sound about right?

Depends on the gun and how much free bore it has

 

[Thumb]

It's definitely got potential. Have you got any IMR4064? If so, work up to about 36.0 grains with it and the bullet between just touching and .010 off.

Tested out the 4064 and so far 33gr with a COAL of 2.490" is the winner at about a .286" group of 5 @ 100yrds. That's using the Nosler 55gr Balistic Tip bullet as with the earlier tests I did. The 2.490" is .010" off the lands. The velocities were a bit slower with the 4064 though with an average of 3377fps as to the H380 with an average of 3438fps. Here's a pic of the 4064 group. I really don't know which one is the best between the two. I guess I can go out to the 200yd range and see which one wins out. BTW, how do you guys measure the group sizes?


33gr 4064 COAL 2.490"


37gr H380 COAL 2.350"

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tested out the 4064 and so far 33gr with a COAL of 2.485" is the winner at about a .286" group of 5 @ 100yrds. That's using the Nosler 55gr Balistic Tip bullet as with the earlier tests I did. The 2.485" is .010" off the lands. The velocities were a bit slower with the 4064 though with an average of 3377fps as to the H380 with an average of 3438fps. Here's a pic of the 4064 group. I really don't know which one is the best between the two. I guess I can go out to the 200yd range and see which one wins out. BTW, how do you guys measure the group sizes?


33gr 4064 COAL 2.485"


37gr H380 COAL 2.350"

Unless you're running into pressure signs, in your rifle, I believe both loads are a little mild and the groups seem to show it.

 

[Thumb]

No signs of pressure problems at all. I tried hotter loads but they did not soot well at all with groups in the + 1.5". Can I ask why you say they look mild, what's the clue?

 

[T-shooter]

Tested out the 4064 and so far 33gr with a COAL of 2.490" is the winner at about a .286" group of 5 @ 100yrds. That's using the Nosler 55gr Balistic Tip bullet as with the earlier tests I did. The 2.490" is .010" off the lands. The velocities were a bit slower with the 4064 though with an average of 3377fps as to the H380 with an average of 3438fps. Here's a pic of the 4064 group. I really don't know which one is the best between the two. I guess I can go out to the 200yd range and see which one wins out. BTW, how do you guys measure the group sizes?


33gr 4064 COAL 2.490"


37gr H380 COAL 2.350"

Measure center to center. There is an inexpensive program (try for free) that will measure them on your computer. https://ontargetshooting.com/

You need a reference measurement on the picture of the target. The target dot diameter will work. I put a quarter on this for an exact measurement.

 

[Thumb]

Thanks, I'll try it out

 

[normmatzen]

What ever!

Just hang on to that Axis, it's a keeper!!!

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No signs of pressure problems at all. I tried hotter loads but they did not soot well at all with groups in the + 1.5". Can I ask why you say they look mild, what's the clue?

Vertical. While it can come from various causes, one of those causes is light powder charge. 36.0gr of 4064 in a 22-250 with a 52-55gr bullet has been a "go to" load in that round, much like 38.0 of h380..for years.
As has been mentioned, your gun is a shooter but we all want to see what the full potential is. I'd go toward those charges until you run into pressure and back off from there. It really shouldn't be very hot in most guns and was an old published load, at one time. Every gun is different though..Hopefully you find magic before you find too much pressure in your particular rifle.
I've had an honest .25moa factory 22-250 before...they just don't last long, as the cartridge is known as a barrel burner. Those factory guns that shoot like like are rare as hen's teeth. You may have one but you're not there yet. Mine was a Winchester Heavy Varmint with a ss bbl. I've been told that the barrels on those rifles were made by Wilson. Wilson may not be a top of the line barrel, but they all get lucky every once in a while. I literally won club matches with that rifle, shooting against quality shooters, shooting Pandas and Bat BR rifles. It was THE rifle that set the BR hook into my lip....most expensive rifle I ever bought due to that.

 

[Thumb]

Haha, maybe I should just quit while I'm ahead and save my barrel. Like I said before, 33gr was better than 34gr and 35gr which were all over the place, maybe I could go 33.5gr and see what that does. I could try 36gr or maybe even a bit more since I am setting the COAL at 2.490" instead of the suggested 2.350" and shouldn't have problems with pressure.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Haha, maybe I should just quit while I'm ahead and save my barrel. Like I said before, 33gr was better than 34gr and 35gr which were all over the place, maybe I could go 33.5gr and see what that does. I could try 36gr or maybe even a bit more since I am setting the COAL at 2.490" instead of the suggested 2.350" and shouldn't have problems with pressure.

I'd start at no more than .010" off the lands but you may well end up with some jam. And yes, full grain graduations are too big. With a 22-250 you're ok to do half gr graduations. I'm serious about my post. Your gun shoots but I bet it's got more left to be found if you don't run into pressure problems first...and I don't think you will at my recommended charges. An old man told me years ago that if a 22-250 won't shoot 36.0gr of 4064, it won't shoot anything. IME with a bunch of them..he was right. You may have to tweak it a few tenths one way or the other and play with seating depth. Suggested OAL has only to do with mag length. It has nothing to do with where the rifle shoots best. Of course, you do have to watch pressures with any change.

 

[T-shooter]

I'd start at no more than .010" off the lands but you may well end up with some jam. And yes, full grain graduations are too big. With a 22-250 you're ok to do half gr graduations. I'm serious about my post. Your gun shoots but I bet it's got more left to be found if you don't run into pressure problems first...and I don't think you will at my recommended charges. An old man told me years ago that if a 22-250 won't shoot 36.0gr of 4064, it won't shoot anything. IME with a bunch of them..he was right. You may have to tweak it a few tenths one way or the other and play with seating depth. Suggested OAL has only to do with mag length. It has nothing to do with where the rifle shoots best. Of course, you do have to watch pressures with any change.

A half grain is quite a bit in smaller cartridges. Here is a test I recently did on a .223 AR with a Wylde chamber and free-floated barrel. Evidently it doesn't like this powder/bullet combination. Point being, how much the groups changed with only 2/10 change in powder load. These charges are weighed to .02G. The Varget load to the left was never tested, just plinking ammo, and used to warm up the barrel but did better than any of the CFE223 loads.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A half grain is quite a bit in smaller cartridges. Here is a test I recently did on a .223 AR with a Wylde chamber and free-floated barrel. Evidently it doesn't like this powder/bullet combination. Point being, how much the groups changed with only 2/10 change in powder load. These charges are weighed to .02G. The Varget load to the left was never tested, just plinking ammo, and used to warm up the barrel but did better than any of the CFE223 loads.

We have to start with a better average to say, or fire a bunch more rounds down range. With all due respect, my post was not about what it takes to make a 5" group into a 2" group. I don't keep those guns long enough to learn much about adjusting loads for them.

 

[Thumb]

I'd start at no more than .010" off the lands but you may well end up with some jam. And yes, full grain graduations are too big. With a 22-250 you're ok to do half gr graduations. I'm serious about my post. Your gun shoots but I bet it's got more left to be found if you don't run into pressure problems first...and I don't think you will at my recommended charges. An old man told me years ago that if a 22-250 won't shoot 36.0gr of 4064, it won't shoot anything. IME with a bunch of them..he was right. You may have to tweak it a few tenths one way or the other and play with seating depth. Suggested OAL has only to do with mag length. It has nothing to do with where the rifle shoots best. Of course, you do have to watch pressures with any change.

I usually do graduations at 0.2gr when working up loads but this was my actual first test and decided to go 1.0gr steps and see what I got. I just happened to hit a great load on the first try. I know I can go to 36.0gr with the COAL I'm at with probably no problems but I'm hesitant to do so because of the tests I've done already with the higher the load, the worse the groups got but I could try a few more tests.

 

[T-shooter]

We have to start with a better average to say, or fire a bunch more rounds down range. With all due respect, my post was not about what it takes to make a 5" group into a 2" group. I don't keep those guns long enough to learn much about adjusting loads for them.

It's not the rifle, it's the ammo. They have to work together. My other AR which has a 5.56 NATO chamber, 16" barrel, and is not free floated, shot this 10 shot group at 100 yards with the customary flier. Not great but this is not by any means a precision rifle, just a home defense weapon. The point of the other picture was showing that a small 2/10g change in powder charge makes noticeable changes in the group size.

 

[Thumb]

I'd start at no more than .010" off the lands but you may well end up with some jam. And yes, full grain graduations are too big. With a 22-250 you're ok to do half gr graduations. I'm serious about my post. Your gun shoots but I bet it's got more left to be found if you don't run into pressure problems first...and I don't think you will at my recommended charges. An old man told me years ago that if a 22-250 won't shoot 36.0gr of 4064, it won't shoot anything. IME with a bunch of them..he was right. You may have to tweak it a few tenths one way or the other and play with seating depth. Suggested OAL has only to do with mag length. It has nothing to do with where the rifle shoots best. Of course, you do have to watch pressures with any change.

I just took a look at my primers for pressure signs and I believe I'm OK but I thought I'd post a pic of the ones I just shot with the 4064 and one live round to compare. My only question is the little crater just starting on the primers. These are CCI primers in once fired brass.



Sorry for the blurred pic

 

[T-shooter]

I never could tell much from primers. Some flatten easier like Federals. Having a crater/ridge (1) around them is a definite pressure sign. Here is what I look for, just my personal opinion. Always better to be safe and never run a maximum listed load unless you are sure of yourself and you've worked up to it in tiny steps. I had a load that was 9/10 under the maximum listed load on Hodgdon's website and got a surprise. About a 30% increase in recoil, and the case looked like (3). It had expanded to the point where the primer would fall out. I was working up in 1/2 grain steps. 45.9g was the max, I got the bad overpressure at 45.0g and later I noticed the loads at 44.5g also had ejector marks similar to (2).
(1) On an AR you can get swipe marks. This also has a cratered primer, way too hot a load. (2) this is the case being pushed into the ejector very lightly, a reason to back your load down. (3) Bad overpressure and dangerous. I have no idea if any of these were fired with the primers shown in them when they overpressured. Usually, the primer would be flattened out like (1).

 

[Thumb]

I've loaded up 1000's of .223 rounds and so far never seen any signs of over pressure or anything like the ones you posted.

 

[rogn]

The middle hole is a pair and the top hole is a pair. You can tell because there are no petals in the bullet hole. When the second bullet passed it took the remaining petals with it.