Poor Runout with Redding "S" Full Length Size Die

[MVW]

Gents:

I have run across a baffling situation. I have a full length size die and it gives run outs at the neck when support on the case at two point normally <0.0005. It really tighten's everthing up. I normally use this before turning necks.

For normal reloading I have been using a competition bushing neck size die. I found that I had a lot of runout on the sized necks when using this die.

Following German's suggestion from the Rifleman's Journal I decided to try a type "S" full size die and this has equally bad run outs (sometimes 0.003-0.005) and the die seems to make it worse. I have tried the O-Ring idea that doesn't seem to have any impact.

Any suggestions? I suppose I can contact Redding and see what they think.

[Turns out that the FL size die on 308 takes it down to 0.332, which is about perfect for 0.013 thick necks, but it would be nice to have some flexibility in neck tension.]

Thanks, Mike

 

[ronemus]

Bushing dies only work properly if you are reducing neck diameter by 0.004" or less. A typical SAAMI chamber will let the neck expand by at least 0.010", meaning you would have to size in 3 steps using bushings. They're only convenient to use with close-neck chambers such as are used for benchrest. The problem is a combination of the clearance that lets bushings "float" and case mouths that aren't symmetric in all respects after firing. For conventional chambers, a standard die will work much better.

 

[joejo]

i have the same issues with a redding competition bushing neck die for my 260. my brass has the necks turned to .0145 (the lapua brass was thick .00145 to .00155 and i use a .293 bushing with a loaded case measurement of 294. the fired cases are only 296 so there isn't excessive chamber clearance. i just went back to my lee collet die. runout at the ojive is ~.001-.002 at the neck its ~0-.0005

edit: the starret indicator on my home made runout/tir guage(whatever you want to calll it) only measures to .001 but i can see if the needle moves a full .001 or if it only goes halfway. this is how i measure to the 4th decimal, crude, maybe but its all i have.

 

[Zia Hunter]

Are you using an expander plug in your die? If so, you may want to try placing an O ring on the decapping assembly between the die and the lock ring. Permits the rod to float. Helped on my Redding Type S and Standard dies.

 

[joejo]

Are you using an expander plug in your die? If so, you may want to try placing an O ring on the decapping assembly between the die and the lock ring. Permits the rod to float. Helped on my Redding Type S and Standard dies.

the comp neck dies have no expander, just a decap pin.

 

[MVW]

Thanks for the suggestions.

One additonal thing that occurred to me is that the neck turning process seems to perturb the runout, though the case wall thickness is consistent. What I have done is FL sized after neck turning to make sure things are straight to start.

I am tending to agree with ronemus, but I might give it one final try now that I know of at least one issue.

I don't use an expander ball on any of my dies.

The neck size of my fired brass is 0.340, so I need to bring it down 0.006 - probably two steps.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[243winxb]

On Redding bushings, the stamp showing the bushing size, needs to be down. On some bushing the stamp is raised a little. This is enough to slant the busihing when the neck of the case pushes the bushing up into the die. Type S. Something to check maybe?

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You do allow the bushing to float in the die, right? I mean, you don't completely tighten down the decaping rod assebly on top of the bushing, you have to back off about 1/4 to 1/8 turn.

 

[amlevin]

I've used a little different method. Not happy with any of my F/L sizing dies including my Forster Benchrest Sizing die in .308.

For Neck Sizing only I use a Lee Collet Die and get consistent runout of <.001.

When it's time to F/L Size or bump back shoulders I use a Redding Body Die and then finish with a run through the Lee Collet. Same results. No more lube in the case necks, finding the right sized bushing, etc. Sure, it's an extra step but I can't complain about the results.

 

[boltman223]

MVW

I have the exact same issues, wouldn't explain it any different. I called redding and there answer was that it has to be the inconsistancies(not sure how to spell that one) in the brass. Also tried aregular neck sizer and making sure the inside of the necks are lubed just in case the ball was pulling the necks. It didn't change any thing.

I dont know if brass inconsitancies is it or not but I would like to find a solution.

Also with zero run out at the neck I get any where from 0 to.005 run out with my bulete. I am using redding competition seater.

 

[MVW]

Bayou Shooter, I do not crank it down, btu rather let it float. I tried several different settings with similar results.

Boltman223 - It is not the brass. Does the same thing with both WIN and LAPUA brass. I suspect ronemus is correct. If he is correct, I'll hang on to my dies for the time when I rebarrel, which at the rate I am going will be soon.

243 - for fun I'll check the size stamp location. Thanks.

 

[BoydAllen]

For neck sizing with large chambers and/or unturned brass, those ugly old collet dies cannot be beat....seriously, and if you need to FL size in the same situation, use the collet first and then use your S die without the bushing, which makes it a body die. You will be amazed at the difference. You already know what doesn't work. Try something different.

 

[crewchef]

Boyd, why collet first and then body?

and +1 to his post. After messing around with a lot of different dies I ended up with Lee collet, Redding body and Forster micrometer seating.

 

[BoydAllen]

I tried it both ways, and that order worked better for runout.

 

[MVW]

Boyd

I am curious, why does the collet die work better than a bushing die for this application? It looks like both just size the neck?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[BoydAllen]

Their mechanisms are entirely different. I have both types of dies, and have a lot of experience with both. Collet dies can come a little rough, and need some minor deburring and smoothing out, but they are a really good design, and they are inexpensive. People like things that look good, and have a tendency to think that the things that cost more work better. As I wrote before, for factory chambers, and/or unturned necks, they produce straighter results than bushing dies. If you will size and measure a few cases with the bushing removed from your FL die, I think that you will see that this part of the process is not the problem

 

[joejo]

Boyd, why collet first and then body?

and +1 to his post. After messing around with a lot of different dies I ended up with Lee collet, Redding body and Forster micrometer seating.

exactly what i am using

i have though used the lee fl sizer bc it dosen't push the shoulder back as far as the redding body die. it also leaves me with a neck at 292 which is only .001 smaller than bushing i was using in the redding comp neck die.

 

[joejo]

Boyd

I am curious, why does the collet die work better than a bushing die for this application? It looks like both just size the neck?

Thanks,

Mike

its the way it sizes the neck. the collet die squeezes the neck around a mandrel that is replaceable with any size you want. there is no "drawing" of the brass just compression.

 

[MVW]

Guys, I ordered up a collet die and will give it a try. Do I need to purchase different size collets for 308?

Thanks, Mike

 

[joejo]

Guys, I ordered up a collet die and will give it a try. Do I need to purchase different size collets for 308?

Thanks, Mike

what you will want to do is:
1 get the die
2 size a case
3 measure how much you have reduced the neck dimension
4 decide then if its too much or too little
5 if its one or the other then you can order the corect mandrel for you.

mine sizes my necks down the exact amount i had been with a 293 bushing for my 260 with .0145 neck walls no mandrel needed for me.

ps i just bought my father a 308 delux die set for his 308. the collet die needed a good bit of polishing to get it to function smoothly. just use 3 or 4 ot steel wool to accomplish this, and then very light grease on the collet to compression piece.
you will see when you get it how simple it is.

also when using the die, run the case in it the rotate the case 90 deg and do it again.