Poll for active 600 yard bench shooters
- Thread starter lynn
- Start date
1) Prone shooting with slings and irons is a hard game. That means that the immediate gratification crowd is immediately put off by it.
2) The rifles and gear used in prone shooting are unfamiliar to casual shooters and thus assumed to be astronomically expensive. None of it is cheap, to be sure, but there are several ways to acquire quality gear without destroying finances.
3) Most casual shooters are deathly afraid to actually perform in front of others. The majority of hunters and casual shooters I have met think they are hot shit behind a rifle because they've been shooting since they were 10 or whatever. When they actually witness what a true rifleman can do and realize they will not beat all comers if they shot at a match, their ego makes them find a million and one excuses why they cannot make it to the next invitation.
Out of ten people that I invite to a prone match, maybe one will take me up on it. When they get there they are amazed at the amount of help they get provided they show a modicum of interest and good attitude.
2) The rifles and gear used in prone shooting are unfamiliar to casual shooters and thus assumed to be astronomically expensive. None of it is cheap, to be sure, but there are several ways to acquire quality gear without destroying finances.
3) Most casual shooters are deathly afraid to actually perform in front of others. The majority of hunters and casual shooters I have met think they are hot shit behind a rifle because they've been shooting since they were 10 or whatever. When they actually witness what a true rifleman can do and realize they will not beat all comers if they shot at a match, their ego makes them find a million and one excuses why they cannot make it to the next invitation.
Out of ten people that I invite to a prone match, maybe one will take me up on it. When they get there they are amazed at the amount of help they get provided they show a modicum of interest and good attitude.
Lynn
I've been reading the answers to both of your threads,active shooters vs non-active) and have to say that you're getting some good answers.
Benchrest, especially long range, IS intimidating and many casual shooters are simply afraid to try it. Those that do usually finish at the bottom of the list and it's hard to convince them to come back for a second helping.
JER mentioned one factor that I have found to be true. Many tin can shooters think they are really good until they try it against the big kids. I remember the first benchrest pistol tournament in Phoenix several years ago. We had a lot of guys with their XP 100 and Contender pistols who had been shooting 1/2 inch groups and/or prairie dogs at 200 yards. I talked to one of them after the matches and he confided in me that he had entered the tournament expecting to clean everbody's clock. Well, many of us were short-range BR shooters and we were shooting 1/4 inch groups and he didn't have a chance. I never saw him at a match again.
Finally, there is the $$$$. As you know, I drive 900 miles one way to shoot a long range tournament. I don't have to take off work so I can spend a whole week doing it. The average guy can't,unless he hangs garage doors for a living
) Add in several tank-fulls of gas at $3 a gallon and it's a wonder anyone shows up at all.
I don't know what the answer is. We probably won't see any new ranges being built so the long drives are a given. Gas prices ain't coming down. That leaves the intimidation factor and maybe the only way around that is a factory class. But even factory class starts out with the best of intentions and quickly grows into an equipment race and we're right back where we started. One thing that might help is a rule change to allow sighters during the record string. Somebody would have to work out the details but there must be a way.
One way to keep me coming back is to ban shooters like the Pumpkin, Jerry HM, and your old man. And assign me a better relay.
Ray
I've been reading the answers to both of your threads,active shooters vs non-active) and have to say that you're getting some good answers.
Benchrest, especially long range, IS intimidating and many casual shooters are simply afraid to try it. Those that do usually finish at the bottom of the list and it's hard to convince them to come back for a second helping.
JER mentioned one factor that I have found to be true. Many tin can shooters think they are really good until they try it against the big kids. I remember the first benchrest pistol tournament in Phoenix several years ago. We had a lot of guys with their XP 100 and Contender pistols who had been shooting 1/2 inch groups and/or prairie dogs at 200 yards. I talked to one of them after the matches and he confided in me that he had entered the tournament expecting to clean everbody's clock. Well, many of us were short-range BR shooters and we were shooting 1/4 inch groups and he didn't have a chance. I never saw him at a match again.
Finally, there is the $$$$. As you know, I drive 900 miles one way to shoot a long range tournament. I don't have to take off work so I can spend a whole week doing it. The average guy can't,unless he hangs garage doors for a living
) Add in several tank-fulls of gas at $3 a gallon and it's a wonder anyone shows up at all.I don't know what the answer is. We probably won't see any new ranges being built so the long drives are a given. Gas prices ain't coming down. That leaves the intimidation factor and maybe the only way around that is a factory class. But even factory class starts out with the best of intentions and quickly grows into an equipment race and we're right back where we started. One thing that might help is a rule change to allow sighters during the record string. Somebody would have to work out the details but there must be a way.
One way to keep me coming back is to ban shooters like the Pumpkin, Jerry HM, and your old man. And assign me a better relay.
Ray
Lynn
Yeah, prizes are always a good idea. But there are drawbacks to a raffle system too. Some shooters will feel like, hey, I won a prize but I really didn't earn it. You're embarrased to tell your wife, girlfriend or significant other. ,Unless it's a Lightforce scope or something like that.)
I think a better way would be to award prizes based on how you finish but with a shooter only eligible for one prize. For example, I remember a 1000 yard match several years ago where a bunch of prizes were donated by the different bullet makers, barrel makers, etc. Probably enough so that every shooter could have gotten one. But when they were handed out they went to about 10 of the top shooters because several of the shooters got two or three picks, or more. You know, one for small group LG, one for 3 target score HG, one for HG target group, etc, etc.,I was almost embarrased taking all that stuff home.. I wish.)
There are others who will say that ALL of the prizes and trophies should go to the top shooters and there is a lot to that. But it certainly doesn't encourage the guy who finishes in the top 10 or 15 every year and never takes a bauble home to show everybody.
Ray
Yeah, prizes are always a good idea. But there are drawbacks to a raffle system too. Some shooters will feel like, hey, I won a prize but I really didn't earn it. You're embarrased to tell your wife, girlfriend or significant other. ,Unless it's a Lightforce scope or something like that.)
I think a better way would be to award prizes based on how you finish but with a shooter only eligible for one prize. For example, I remember a 1000 yard match several years ago where a bunch of prizes were donated by the different bullet makers, barrel makers, etc. Probably enough so that every shooter could have gotten one. But when they were handed out they went to about 10 of the top shooters because several of the shooters got two or three picks, or more. You know, one for small group LG, one for 3 target score HG, one for HG target group, etc, etc.,I was almost embarrased taking all that stuff home.
. I wish.)There are others who will say that ALL of the prizes and trophies should go to the top shooters and there is a lot to that. But it certainly doesn't encourage the guy who finishes in the top 10 or 15 every year and never takes a bauble home to show everybody.
Ray
Lynn
Yeah, that is kind of what I meant. I didn't say it right. All prizes are on the table. Top shooter takes his choice of all of them. No 2 takes his pick and so on down the line until they're all gone. That would give the guy who finished 15th an incentive to to better next time. The order of picking could be the point system we agreed on at the 600 Yard Nationals.
I saw Danny's post on the other thread. Interesting. Why not 500 instead of 600? That would sure tend to add a lot of existing ranges to the list.
Ray
Yeah, that is kind of what I meant. I didn't say it right. All prizes are on the table. Top shooter takes his choice of all of them. No 2 takes his pick and so on down the line until they're all gone. That would give the guy who finished 15th an incentive to to better next time. The order of picking could be the point system we agreed on at the 600 Yard Nationals.
I saw Danny's post on the other thread. Interesting. Why not 500 instead of 600? That would sure tend to add a lot of existing ranges to the list.
Ray
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Administrator
This country has a huge number of shooters, but only a small percentage of those seem to be interested in accuracy. I'd say the vast majority of American gun owners have never seen a really accurate rifle,whether it be an Anschutz or a 600-yard BR gun), much less shot one.
The Media Hasn't Helped,Nor have manufacturers)
Accordingly, most gun owners really don't have a notion of what the accuracy game is about, and the "gun media" doesn't really do much to promote competition at all,except maybe cowboy action and IDPA).
Manufacturers have done a miserable job of selling the desirability of ultra-accurate arms in this country. Instead nearly every ad dollar is spent talking about "stopping power" and "tactical weapon systems". At the Shot Show, not one large American arms maker was promoting a match grade rifle.,But you'll find scores of black "tactical" rifles and pricey shotguns).
I agree with the previous poster that we have to look at marketing and event "packaging" if we want to entice new shooters. Shooting sports need to be pitched as cool, exciting, and perhaps most importantly, the kind of thing an "Alpha male",or "Alpha female") does for fun. Think how golf is marketed. It's marketed as a sport for successful people.
Getting back to specifics, in California, there are now 36 million residents,acc. to the US Census Bureau). I figure at least 15%, i.e. 5.4 million, are gun owners. But realistically, maybe only 4,000-5,000 people in the entire state regularly participate in any kind of firearms competition. Could be a lot less in fact.
How do we increase participation? First clubs have to spread the word that they exist--that means hosting "fun shoots" where newcomers,and local newspaper writers) can try things out.
Second, we have to find a way to get the handgunners and "tin can shooters" interested in stepping up to precision rifles. Part of that is my job--making precision rifles and precision shooting seem "cool" and appealing. Look at how motorcycling is covered--there is a great emphasis on repli-racer motorcycles and they have become hugely popular with younger riders, most of whom will never, ever use most of those bikes' capabilities. But the point is that the repli-racers are considered cool--so they sell.
We, my friends, have something even better--For a couple grand, a person can actually go out and buy a custom rifle that literally is the equivalent of a Formula 1 Ferrari--the best in the world, the state of the art, an instrument capable of putting its owner in the record books.
THAT is something really amazing when you think about it. But nobody is getting the message that we are shooting the equivalent of Ferrari Enzos or $50,000 motorcycles. Instead 9 out of 10 gun buyers just think, well heck, why spend $2500 when I can get a Stevens 30-06 for $350.00. But if they were told--with this gun, you could set a world record,and be the envy of all your friends), wouldn't that change things?
Shooting as a "High-Status" Hobby
Likewise we need to create a perception that shooting really accurate rifles is cool--something a successful young guy or gal would be interested in. I think that begins by making efforts to have trial days at ranges where novice shooters can get their hands on really accurate rifles. I note that Swiss rifle-maker Grunig & Elmiger pitches its product as the "Formula 1 of shooting"--that's a smart idea. When competitive shooting,with really accurate rifles) is perceived as something that matches the "successful, high-status" self-image people want, then they will get involved.
Trap shooting enjoys that high-status cachet, and that's why guys with money spend big bucks to buy Perazzis and join shotgun clubs. We need to figure out a way to portray precision rifle shooting as equally "elite" and image-enhancing.
I'll have a story about European 300m shooting up soon. When you see how these events are staged, and the type of shooters involved, you'll see that this event is obviously perceived as a High Status hobby--something like yacht racing. If we want precision shooting competition to be more than a tiny "fringe" activity in this country,practiced by maybe 1 in 5000 gun-owners) we need to cultivate that "high status" notion here, replacing the popular perception that shooting matches are just what a bunch of grumpy old gun nuts do.
- - -
Back to specifics, the one thing I think that will boost match participation more than anything else is getting wives/girlfriends involved. Right now, most guys have a choice between going to a match or being with their wife/GF. Men will be much more inclined to go shooting, I think, if the wives/GFs will come too. Cowboy Action shooting has done an excellent job involving the ladies. We need to emulate that.
The Media Hasn't Helped,Nor have manufacturers)
Accordingly, most gun owners really don't have a notion of what the accuracy game is about, and the "gun media" doesn't really do much to promote competition at all,except maybe cowboy action and IDPA).
Manufacturers have done a miserable job of selling the desirability of ultra-accurate arms in this country. Instead nearly every ad dollar is spent talking about "stopping power" and "tactical weapon systems". At the Shot Show, not one large American arms maker was promoting a match grade rifle.,But you'll find scores of black "tactical" rifles and pricey shotguns).
I agree with the previous poster that we have to look at marketing and event "packaging" if we want to entice new shooters. Shooting sports need to be pitched as cool, exciting, and perhaps most importantly, the kind of thing an "Alpha male",or "Alpha female") does for fun. Think how golf is marketed. It's marketed as a sport for successful people.
Getting back to specifics, in California, there are now 36 million residents,acc. to the US Census Bureau). I figure at least 15%, i.e. 5.4 million, are gun owners. But realistically, maybe only 4,000-5,000 people in the entire state regularly participate in any kind of firearms competition. Could be a lot less in fact.
How do we increase participation? First clubs have to spread the word that they exist--that means hosting "fun shoots" where newcomers,and local newspaper writers) can try things out.
Second, we have to find a way to get the handgunners and "tin can shooters" interested in stepping up to precision rifles. Part of that is my job--making precision rifles and precision shooting seem "cool" and appealing. Look at how motorcycling is covered--there is a great emphasis on repli-racer motorcycles and they have become hugely popular with younger riders, most of whom will never, ever use most of those bikes' capabilities. But the point is that the repli-racers are considered cool--so they sell.
We, my friends, have something even better--For a couple grand, a person can actually go out and buy a custom rifle that literally is the equivalent of a Formula 1 Ferrari--the best in the world, the state of the art, an instrument capable of putting its owner in the record books.
THAT is something really amazing when you think about it. But nobody is getting the message that we are shooting the equivalent of Ferrari Enzos or $50,000 motorcycles. Instead 9 out of 10 gun buyers just think, well heck, why spend $2500 when I can get a Stevens 30-06 for $350.00. But if they were told--with this gun, you could set a world record,and be the envy of all your friends), wouldn't that change things?
Shooting as a "High-Status" Hobby
Likewise we need to create a perception that shooting really accurate rifles is cool--something a successful young guy or gal would be interested in. I think that begins by making efforts to have trial days at ranges where novice shooters can get their hands on really accurate rifles. I note that Swiss rifle-maker Grunig & Elmiger pitches its product as the "Formula 1 of shooting"--that's a smart idea. When competitive shooting,with really accurate rifles) is perceived as something that matches the "successful, high-status" self-image people want, then they will get involved.
Trap shooting enjoys that high-status cachet, and that's why guys with money spend big bucks to buy Perazzis and join shotgun clubs. We need to figure out a way to portray precision rifle shooting as equally "elite" and image-enhancing.
I'll have a story about European 300m shooting up soon. When you see how these events are staged, and the type of shooters involved, you'll see that this event is obviously perceived as a High Status hobby--something like yacht racing. If we want precision shooting competition to be more than a tiny "fringe" activity in this country,practiced by maybe 1 in 5000 gun-owners) we need to cultivate that "high status" notion here, replacing the popular perception that shooting matches are just what a bunch of grumpy old gun nuts do.
- - -
Back to specifics, the one thing I think that will boost match participation more than anything else is getting wives/girlfriends involved. Right now, most guys have a choice between going to a match or being with their wife/GF. Men will be much more inclined to go shooting, I think, if the wives/GFs will come too. Cowboy Action shooting has done an excellent job involving the ladies. We need to emulate that.
Lynn, I know that intimidation can be a factor when a new shooter shows interest. I am in my 4th or 5th year of BR shooting now, and started with a stock 700 with a Lilja barrel and a hunter stock chambered in a straight .308 win. Putting it on the bench with a witchita rest next to a custom rig was scary to me. But I stuck with it and improved when I could, I do not see many young shooters coming up and I also wonder where this sport will go in the future. Expences is at utmost especially with gas prices, but time is by far the largest factor to me, and this sport requires a great amount of time for loading and practice. other shooting sports that require alot less money and time will probably always display more popularity. I have a friend that says all benchrest shooters have a sickness, and I think he is right, its a sickness for accuracy, and smaller groups and higher score. I have no answers for bringing in new shooters, but one thing that I have done and still do is allow a prospective person that shows interest is let them shoot my guns at a match to try to set the hook, its worked a couple times. Ron Tilley
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