I have a worked 22-250, its a Remy 700 that's been blueprinted and wears a shilen. I have a Timney at 1.5lbs. I've been loading a long time and have narrowed down what my rifle likes. I'm no crack shot and I'm shooting at 100 from a bench. I'm having trouble holding the rifle perfectly still. I have a Leupold 6.5x20x50 on it and it is just a hunting rifle but I enjoy shooting and loading. I'm playing around with the pinching method and it seems to help but i'm wondering if my trigger weight is really too heavy for this method? Just wanted some opinions on the different methods used. I guess I just feel like my groups are more my fault than my loads and i'm looking for input. Right now, I'm shooting in the high 3's but i'm wanting .250" consistency....Thanks
Pinching the trigger with thumb on guard vs traditional hold...
- Thread starter Arkyvarminter
- Start date
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
High 3s with the rifle you describe is pretty great shooting. Not many will do that.
We all would like consistent .250 groups. If you don't have a good set of wind flags they will help more than anything else you can do
We all would like consistent .250 groups. If you don't have a good set of wind flags they will help more than anything else you can do
It really depends on your rifle. My 6BR is best in free recoil and pinched trigger but my trigger is about 4-5 oz but my 30BR requres a death grip on the stock or it will torque quite a bit. Develop a method of aligning front rest and rear bag and if you aren't aligned with the target after the shot have so meone watch you shoot or video your shooting to see what is going on.
I started getting better groups when I improved my bench rest shooting equipment, I went from the "sand bag" to the great Sinclair front rest and some quality rear bags. I put a flat three inch front bag rider on the forearm. I put a Nighforce Bench Rest scope on the gun just for group shooting. I started shooting at a smaller aiming point on the target. I started watching the weather report for near calm wind days, Etc, etc. It all helped.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I think that you can answer your own question by trying several approaches while dry firing. Keep an eye out for how the cross hairs move (or don't) on the target. There is very little written about dry firing when trying to improve one's bench shooting. It can make a big difference, and will allow you to see things that you will miss during live fire. What sort of rest and bags are you using, and how are you making contact with the rifle? I find it common that shooters think that making as little contact as possible with a factory stocked rifle is the best approach for shooting from a bench. I strongly disagree, but there are rules as to how to shoot holding the rifle, that if violated can open your groups. Although I have some very fancy rest equipment, for the usual sort of rounded factory stocks, I have a home made rest and bag that outshines them all. It is not pretty, but it is superior in function. If you want I can email a couple of pictures. One more thing before I finish. Typically shooters have their front bags too far out on their factory stocks' forends. In most cases they need to be much nearer the front of the action...2-3". I have seen this make a considerable difference when combined with some other technique changes.
I have tried the dry firing approach that Boyd recommends and it has been very helpful.
Work on reading the wind and use a top quality front rest and rear bag. These things will improve the accuracy of every rifle that you own.
Make sure you don't have any parallax. A three lever trigger will get your trigger pull down a good bit but it takes some practice to get used to it.
Make sure you don't have any parallax. A three lever trigger will get your trigger pull down a good bit but it takes some practice to get used to it.
I think dry fireing is very hard on fireing pin spring . And the firing pin . Larry
Don't miss this one OP , this is important info. The hunting stock design is not made to sit out on the end.
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BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Larry,
I have never seen or even heard of a modern CF bolt action being hurt by dry firing. If you ask someone who is involved in military marksmanship, I think that you would be amazed at the amount of dry firing that is part of their regular routine. Position shooters are very familiar with the advantages, and most bench shooters are self taught and therefore have missed learning the importance of this valuable technique.
Some time back, a friend, who shoots his sporting rifles very well, had gotten started in benchrest. He had a chance to buy an entire outfit of high quality equipment, and since it was suitable for that style, he decided to shoot free recoil. After some time, he came to the conclusion that he might have a shooting problem because he was stuck in the low 2s and felt (it turned out correctly) that his equipment and loads were better than that.
One day he had gone to his private range (100 yd., good concrete bench) and just as he finished setting up the wind increased to the point where there would have been little point in the tuning session that he had planned. As it happened, about that same time, I called him on his cell, mostly because I had been helping him with the little details of getting his BR "game" together. When he told me of the conditions, I suggested that instead of packing up, that he do some dry firing.
During that session he discovered that he had a trigger pulling technique problem that was causing excessive crosshair movement on his target. (This would not have been the case if he had been holding the rifle.) Once he saw that there was a problem, he did some experimenting and came up with a solution, with the result that when the stars were in proper alignment he was able to get into the 1s...all because he did some dry fire practice and was able to solve the problem that it uncovered. The following year I had the pleasure of seeing him shoot a screamer at 200 yards using another technique that I had suggested for when the wind was switchy, shooting with his head up (free recoil of course for this) after aiming carefully. This had allowed him to see all of the flags and make better decisions as to when to shoot. I hasten to add that his rifle was stocked, balanced, supported, and of a caliber that allowed free recoil shooting, most rifles, including many benchrest rifles do not shoot their best that way. This is not a problem. Many matches and Hall of Fame points have been won by shooters in various degrees of contact with their rifles.
I have never seen or even heard of a modern CF bolt action being hurt by dry firing. If you ask someone who is involved in military marksmanship, I think that you would be amazed at the amount of dry firing that is part of their regular routine. Position shooters are very familiar with the advantages, and most bench shooters are self taught and therefore have missed learning the importance of this valuable technique.
Some time back, a friend, who shoots his sporting rifles very well, had gotten started in benchrest. He had a chance to buy an entire outfit of high quality equipment, and since it was suitable for that style, he decided to shoot free recoil. After some time, he came to the conclusion that he might have a shooting problem because he was stuck in the low 2s and felt (it turned out correctly) that his equipment and loads were better than that.
One day he had gone to his private range (100 yd., good concrete bench) and just as he finished setting up the wind increased to the point where there would have been little point in the tuning session that he had planned. As it happened, about that same time, I called him on his cell, mostly because I had been helping him with the little details of getting his BR "game" together. When he told me of the conditions, I suggested that instead of packing up, that he do some dry firing.
During that session he discovered that he had a trigger pulling technique problem that was causing excessive crosshair movement on his target. (This would not have been the case if he had been holding the rifle.) Once he saw that there was a problem, he did some experimenting and came up with a solution, with the result that when the stars were in proper alignment he was able to get into the 1s...all because he did some dry fire practice and was able to solve the problem that it uncovered. The following year I had the pleasure of seeing him shoot a screamer at 200 yards using another technique that I had suggested for when the wind was switchy, shooting with his head up (free recoil of course for this) after aiming carefully. This had allowed him to see all of the flags and make better decisions as to when to shoot. I hasten to add that his rifle was stocked, balanced, supported, and of a caliber that allowed free recoil shooting, most rifles, including many benchrest rifles do not shoot their best that way. This is not a problem. Many matches and Hall of Fame points have been won by shooters in various degrees of contact with their rifles.
Ok you and your friends can do it . But I will use a snap cap or a case with a primer in it . Vibrations valve float kill valve springs and break the head off of valves I thinks fireing pin would be the same . Larry
I used the "pinch" method early on in my BR comp.days. It was the first correction my mentor made to my shooting form. I now shoot with my wrist supported by a separate sand bag and my index finger lightly brushing the stock as an anchor point.
Best thing you can do to overcome that roly poly fore-end in the bags is to use an accuracy asset ( R.W. Hart) or Sinclairs benchrest adapter with a new front bag. Other than that upgrading the bags ( please tell me their not Caldwell
) and playing with their hardness and (as Boyd said) place the front bag closer to the action.ballistic64
Silver $$ Contributor
It is usually the piston that causes that, because when the valves float, they also become out of time.
I have been shooting NRA High Power Rifle competition in the service rifle category for about a 100 years and have dry fired my match rifles about a billion times and have not had any gun problems from dry firing. Slight exaggeration but ask any high power competitor and you will get a similar answer. Sometimes opinions are all that we have to go on but in this case this is not in the area of opinion, this is factual with overwhelming data and experience.
All great posts. I really try to concentrate on timing my breathing to match the point of let off when I have contact with the rifle. I like to watch the crosshairs "settle in" on target at the point where I apply pressure to the trigger. I believe this is about what's called "natural point of aim" of the rifle.
Without getting too far off topic here , comparing a firing pin spring to a valve spring is a non starter in this case.
Valve float occurs when the open load of a spring or springs cannot over come the speed at which the the valvetrain needs to return , or it is experiencing coil bind due to an improper installed hieght etc.
Controlling valve float can be accomplished by utilizing a spring that has more open load rating , or in the other case lengthening the installed hieght etc..
I suppose bu using a snapcap etc , you could eliminate the possibility of hammering the pin on it's stop?
Carry on gents lol
I said float meaning chattering That is when the valves is closed and it is bouncing on the seat from not enough closed pressure. Or installed pressure . Same thing a weak firing spring does . And or dry firing.
Strange as it is I'm heading over to de arch some some leaf springs on a race car and will do it with vibration from a smaller air hammer .
Why would someone would stress a fireing pin that way when a simple snap cap or a cartridge with a primer would cure the problem.
Larry
I have a model 70 with well over 100K dry fires on it and we'll over 10K rounds through it and I've never experienced any problems. Whe teaching my son or a new shooter about trigger control and the effect jerking or slapping the trigger has on crosshair movement. Never caused a problem. Certain rimfires I have are a different story and require a snap cap or a fired round for dry fire practice.
Valve float and valve chatter are not the same and the damage they cause is not the same either. Too much boost or backpressure for the springs to handle is another cause of float.
Valve float and valve chatter are not the same and the damage they cause is not the same either. Too much boost or backpressure for the springs to handle is another cause of float.
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