Phoenix clones
- Thread starter Radar
- Start date
I have one thats being barreled right now, Target port, heavy rem tang, side bolt release, extended tennon, fitted with a PT&G bolt, double pinned recoil lug with extended top to key into the scope base and act as a recoil lug their also.
Its the "slickest" action I've felt besides a Bat, the bolt glides easly through the action far better than an Rem I've ever felt and I've had some done by the best.
For the money a guy would be crazy to buy a rem and dump several hundered dollars into it making it run better.
I ordered my barrel a couple weeks later ordered my reciever paid half then the rest on completion 4 weeks later, ordered my bolt recieved it 1 week later, got the stock off a web classifides, barrel showed up after 9 weeks sent all the parts to the smith. It nice being able to buy the parts a little at a time doesn't hurt so much and the fife doesn't catch on as fast either.
Its the "slickest" action I've felt besides a Bat, the bolt glides easly through the action far better than an Rem I've ever felt and I've had some done by the best.
For the money a guy would be crazy to buy a rem and dump several hundered dollars into it making it run better.
I ordered my barrel a couple weeks later ordered my reciever paid half then the rest on completion 4 weeks later, ordered my bolt recieved it 1 week later, got the stock off a web classifides, barrel showed up after 9 weeks sent all the parts to the smith. It nice being able to buy the parts a little at a time doesn't hurt so much and the fife doesn't catch on as fast either.
I forgot what forum I read it on, but someone was having a problem with the cam angle of the bolt vs. the cam angle of the action. They were milled different. BUT, I think the bolt and handle were supplied by PTG and maybe weren't compatable with the Phoenix Machine action. I've been thinking about getting one myself.
Phoenix Machine link
This is the one I was talking about. The guy may have a point, he sure thinks he does, but when you mix manufacturers this is what you get sometimes.
This is the one I was talking about. The guy may have a point, he sure thinks he does, but when you mix manufacturers this is what you get sometimes.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
He knows what he is talking about.
Butch
Butch
I'm not sure exactly what the price was but it was under $500 with the recoil lug. The bolt and handel was like $150 shipped.
Yes their were some issues with the reciever/bolt timing with the bolts that were getting ordered with the handels welded on, my smith TIG welds the handels on so that they are an exact fit for your reciever and HIGHLY recomends that you order the handel and bolt body NOT attached,hes done several with zero issues with the finished gun.
I ordered my bolt .700", I think the standard is .698" but i wanted a little tighter fit,my bolt will be fluted so I'm not that concerned with debris locking it up
Yes their were some issues with the reciever/bolt timing with the bolts that were getting ordered with the handels welded on, my smith TIG welds the handels on so that they are an exact fit for your reciever and HIGHLY recomends that you order the handel and bolt body NOT attached,hes done several with zero issues with the finished gun.
I ordered my bolt .700", I think the standard is .698" but i wanted a little tighter fit,my bolt will be fluted so I'm not that concerned with debris locking it up
Butch,
Do you think that the best thing to do would be to wait for Glenn to get his own bolts finished? I understand that they are going to be "one piece" units like the Nesika bolts. Or is there a bolt handle you can get from Brownells that will match up to the receiver. I agree that what the fella was complaining about wasn't right,non matching angles and poor timing).
Do you think that the best thing to do would be to wait for Glenn to get his own bolts finished? I understand that they are going to be "one piece" units like the Nesika bolts. Or is there a bolt handle you can get from Brownells that will match up to the receiver. I agree that what the fella was complaining about wasn't right,non matching angles and poor timing).
Dans40X
Welder
The action,s)in question are/were physically/mechanically imposable to time the steeper 45 degree extraction cam over the shallower 35 degree primary/battery cam of the integral lugs in the front receiver ring.
Integral lug surfaces appeared to be a "Corn Cob Finish" & had the historical lug GALLING properties appearant in some of the other actions the maunfacturer produced.
I machined/hand fit handles to the action,s) in question.
The extraction camming was operational if the bolt handle was located .035" off the aft end of the bolt body.
I've timed a few thousand bolt handles on various bolts/actions in the last 25+ years-
The action,s)in question, if mine would have been cut in half & returned to keep them out of circulation.
Owner still waiting patiently for receiver that appearantly are to so called specifications,with the exception of a burr.
Some are easily BS'd-I'm not one of them!
Integral lug surfaces appeared to be a "Corn Cob Finish" & had the historical lug GALLING properties appearant in some of the other actions the maunfacturer produced.
I machined/hand fit handles to the action,s) in question.
The extraction camming was operational if the bolt handle was located .035" off the aft end of the bolt body.
I've timed a few thousand bolt handles on various bolts/actions in the last 25+ years-
The action,s)in question, if mine would have been cut in half & returned to keep them out of circulation.
Owner still waiting patiently for receiver that appearantly are to so called specifications,with the exception of a burr.
Some are easily BS'd-I'm not one of them!
Radar
Silver $$ Contributor
Dan...So I get this all straight you are saying the cocking angle on the Remington bolts and the action lug angle is 45 degree and the Phoenix lug angle is 35 degrees? Did Phoenix just start selling the clones and may have a set up problem that they overlooked? I was planning to order the action in chrome moly to avoid the galling problems of stainless but will have to wait to see what happens with the lug issues.To the other fellow that asked about the one piece bolt,I would guess that it will be for Phoenix's custom action not the clones.The cost of the clone and PTG's bolt would make a nice action for a midrange price,but add anymore and you may as well get a Bat,Kelbly,etc. Thanks
Dans40X
Welder
clowdis,
Exactly.
When a 45 degree drafted extraction angle bolt handle was "located" dimensionally.035" aft/rearward off the back of the .698" PT&G S/A spiral fluted bolt body,loosing 3/4 of primary extraction,the bolt/handle would cycle.
With the above handle "located",.008" handle/receiver clearance) & "timed" to the primary extraction cam on the receiver,bolt & handle rotation/lift stopped at the extraction cam.
Exactly.
When a 45 degree drafted extraction angle bolt handle was "located" dimensionally.035" aft/rearward off the back of the .698" PT&G S/A spiral fluted bolt body,loosing 3/4 of primary extraction,the bolt/handle would cycle.
With the above handle "located",.008" handle/receiver clearance) & "timed" to the primary extraction cam on the receiver,bolt & handle rotation/lift stopped at the extraction cam.
Dan:
Most shooters are completly unaware of the caming surface on the back of the action and the bolt handle. When one talks about bolt timing they are clueless. It has been very interesting to see how the different clone makers have addressed these issue. Dave Kiff makes the bolt handles for most. Most just follow Remingtons lead. I recently got a Pierce aaction and it was completly different. Jerry Stiller and I had a half hour conversation about this subject. I was holding a Remington, Predator, and Pierce action in my hands simultaniously. The Remington was the only one that clicked on opening.
Nat Lambeth
Most shooters are completly unaware of the caming surface on the back of the action and the bolt handle. When one talks about bolt timing they are clueless. It has been very interesting to see how the different clone makers have addressed these issue. Dave Kiff makes the bolt handles for most. Most just follow Remingtons lead. I recently got a Pierce aaction and it was completly different. Jerry Stiller and I had a half hour conversation about this subject. I was holding a Remington, Predator, and Pierce action in my hands simultaniously. The Remington was the only one that clicked on opening.
Nat Lambeth
Dans40X
Welder
Nat,
Affirmative,in regards to extraction cam timing.
Mention firing pin timing issues & most will usually tell you that you are crazy & don't know what you're talking about.
The Pierce primary extraction cam cut into the PT&G/Pierce handle shank & not the handle attachment strap-aka Rem/Clones- makes for a stronger handle attachment joint.
Upon removal of PT&G/Pierce handle the silvered joint held & the handle broke-first PT&G bolt/handle to date that joint was prepped correctly.
An out of time,clicking/burred Remington action bolt handle takes approximately 15 minutes to remove/prep/fit/locate/time/TIG weld with a Life Time Guarantee if done in Fairbanks,Alaska.
Affirmative,in regards to extraction cam timing.
Mention firing pin timing issues & most will usually tell you that you are crazy & don't know what you're talking about.
The Pierce primary extraction cam cut into the PT&G/Pierce handle shank & not the handle attachment strap-aka Rem/Clones- makes for a stronger handle attachment joint.
Upon removal of PT&G/Pierce handle the silvered joint held & the handle broke-first PT&G bolt/handle to date that joint was prepped correctly.
An out of time,clicking/burred Remington action bolt handle takes approximately 15 minutes to remove/prep/fit/locate/time/TIG weld with a Life Time Guarantee if done in Fairbanks,Alaska.
I'm still waiting on my action with the one-piece bolt. It is not a perfect 700 clone as I specified the bridges be full round and part of the same cylinder and the Nesika type bolt release. I guess they have had some machinery break down and had to get a new rotary table. They are WAY behind schedule.
I guess it is getting late and I am kind of tired, but why would anyone buy an action body from person A, buy a bolt for a remington from person B,and not neccesarily fit person A's body) and then a handle for a remington from maybe even another person that may not fit either. Then someone puts it all together, may or may not be qualified and just hopes to hell the timing of the bolt lugs, extraction, cocking slot etc all matches up. By the way, the tolerances on the handles are such that they probably wont time correctly either. That is one reason I rework all those surfaces here. Then when all is said and done, by the time you buy the body, bolt, handle and all the other crap to finish it you have $600 to $700 in it and it may be cobbled. Instead you could buy a complete action with a wire edm'd body, anti-bind rail, fully finished, professionally assembled, checked out and tested, warranteed, bolt coated etc etc etc for the same basic price.
And another thing, the remington extraction surface is on the handle tang and is far from optimal. Our actions extract on the fat part of the handle where the surface stresses are much lower. We even match machine the body and handle on the 4th axis just like it operates for perfect match. Not to mention the bolts made by PPG for us,to our specs by the way) have about 10x better tolerances then the replacement bolts, have an anti-piercing firing pin system that doesnt leave the hole etc etc etc.
I guess I will just not understand.
And another thing, the remington extraction surface is on the handle tang and is far from optimal. Our actions extract on the fat part of the handle where the surface stresses are much lower. We even match machine the body and handle on the 4th axis just like it operates for perfect match. Not to mention the bolts made by PPG for us,to our specs by the way) have about 10x better tolerances then the replacement bolts, have an anti-piercing firing pin system that doesnt leave the hole etc etc etc.
I guess I will just not understand.
Jerry:
I have the option to use or reccomend to my customers what ever action I think is the best for their application. Recently I put together a Left handed Predator that my customer bought from you. I can say the fit and finsh was second to none. The bolt timing was right on the money. You and Kevin Wyatt worked me through the magazine issues I encounterd. I put a 28" Broughton 1:10, 5C barrel on this action chambered in 300WSM. It was put in a pillar bedded McMillian hunter stock and had the lug glassed in. I can say that I have not had any easier rifle to put together. This rifle shoots really good and cost less than a trued and timed Remington that has been restocked and rebarreled. Some folks like to throw good money after bad.
Some do it right from the start.
Nat Lambeth
I have the option to use or reccomend to my customers what ever action I think is the best for their application. Recently I put together a Left handed Predator that my customer bought from you. I can say the fit and finsh was second to none. The bolt timing was right on the money. You and Kevin Wyatt worked me through the magazine issues I encounterd. I put a 28" Broughton 1:10, 5C barrel on this action chambered in 300WSM. It was put in a pillar bedded McMillian hunter stock and had the lug glassed in. I can say that I have not had any easier rifle to put together. This rifle shoots really good and cost less than a trued and timed Remington that has been restocked and rebarreled. Some folks like to throw good money after bad.
Some do it right from the start.
Nat Lambeth
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Radar
Silver $$ Contributor
The Phoenix clone has some nice options,target tang,target port,etc. and it falls in the $600 price range that doesn't have many actions to chose from. I know there must be a good reason but I can't get over the ugly port on Stiller's action,if it wasn't for that I'd probably have one,but life's to short to shoot a ugly gun.
stiller said:
I haven't messed with one of the Phoenix actions, nor one of your Predators, so I can't comment on differences between them. But I can tell you that if and when Phoenix works the bugs out, that's the direction I would lean. The main reason is lots of options. I like coned bolts and also like the fit of the bolt a little tighter than the Predator. When I call Dave, I can have the bolt ground to whatever diameter I wish, and I can have the fluting, bolt handle, and firing pin diameter of my choice. From the looks of his modest website, his actions will be available with a ton of options as well...time will tell I guess.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Tightneck,
Bud, I hope you live a long time. My Nesika never got fixed.
Butch
Bud, I hope you live a long time. My Nesika never got fixed.
Butch
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