Pair firing in the USA

[memilanuk]

At our local club matches here we have been running more Fullbore matches than straight mid-range Prone. Seems to be well received by the F-class crowd in general, as we run things a little looser for the club matches. Gives an opportunity to squad father-son combos together (if they want), for someone to bring a buddy out to get their feet wet, etc. Seems like its a little less intimidating for the new shooters if they have a 'wind dummy' to follow when there's a big change or switch, rather than get into the string and get completely and utterly lost by themselves.

Ironically, it's the sling shooters that really don't seem to like the pair fire format... more specifically, when there's an odd number and someone gets stuck shooting three-to-a-mound. It's a long darn time to be stuck there in a coat n sling...

 

[dcali]

Given a choice, I'd choose to shoot the regular way. Just a preference. Part of the fun is picking your conditions.

 

[Immike]

Mike, the F-Open community at large may have you drawn and quartered for such a suggestion. I love the format, it completely eliminates the rapid fire, how fast can my puller get the target back up shooting, and requires you to read wind and make wind calls. It also eliminates the need for delays with e-targets as you have to wait for your partner to shoot.

and

I personally plan to continue to shoot in international competitions so more experience is better for me as far as I'm concerned. I've made it a point to shoot the Sinclairs for the last three yrs. I haven't made SoA in 2 yrs, but I'm trying to figure out how to get back there, and I'm going to be shooting several matches in Canada next yr, and they all shoot that way.


Put me down as a fan.

I do find it interesting that by and large the F-TR shooters that I talk with like the format, but more often than not the people that have strong dislike of it are Open guys.

Wade, your suggestion for e-targets is very good! Everything else is right also, I'm just seeing a way to kill 3 birds with one stone. 2 man team matches look to be a common someday if there was an easy way....
Thanks everyone for your input!!

 

[NateG]

Sling shooter and sometimes F/TR shooter here...

I'm very much in favor of more pair firing (or even three-to-a-mound) matches. It helps with familiarization for international matches, and forces you to become a better wind reader. (Though, on the other side of the coin, string fire helps develop the 'shoot-fast' style that helps you as a team shooter.)

Now for the newbie (to f-class) opinion on F-class that you are free to ignore without hurting my feelings... The thing that appeals to me about F/TR is the premium it puts on wind reading. It's a smaller target than I'm used to and a gun that's not nearly enough better than my 155s to make up for it. So, I have to make my wind calls that much better, and the scope and bipod help me get that much better wind feedback (from smaller groups). That is a *huge* help in my wind reading. Shooting string in F/TR still puts a premium on wind reading, but not as much as when chasing the spotter and waiting out conditions are off the table as in pair-firing.

As to sling shooting, the time in the sling isn't that bad but it does take some getting used to (either getting used to lots of time in position, or getting used to breaking and rebuilding position each shot) Although the State President's final in South Africa was pretty hot this year... 2 and 15 in some tough wind and with the slow pit service that's normal there and (always) three to a mound... it was a long time in the coat in the sun. But, I shot a 300m match last month (two 60-shot 300m-reduced-to-200y matches) that I ended up pair firing. (yes, I pair fired two 60-shot strings.) And I shot a huge personal best... so maybe I'm not the best person to ask for the troubles of pair firing with the sling. But, if you do spend the time to get comfortable and/or practice rebuilding your position each shot, you will help your shooting immensely.

So, to make a long story boring... I'm a fan of pair firing because it is a bit tougher, and it makes you a better shooter and a better wind reader.

 

[jkl]

I enjoy pair firing at any distance. When practicing my Silver Mountain Target is perfect for pair to 3 to a mound. Just a simple program change and pair fire. I enjoy the competition that goes back and forth between your partner.

I think there is a fullbore match in December at Ben Avery l hope it is pair fired.

John

 

[ngb1787]

I enjoy pair firing at any distance. When practicing my Silver Mountain Target is perfect for pair to 3 to a mound. Just a simple program change and pair fire. I enjoy the competition that goes back and forth between your partner.

I think there is a fullbore match in December at Ben Avery l hope it is pair fired.

John

We will expect to see you there jkl,

 

[MarkTrew]

Great, we're getting lectured by another pompous-ass condescending Canuckian. What is this world coming to?

However, in preparation for the FCNC and FCWC some of us at Bayou were practicing getting our shots off within the 45 second timeframe, with (in my case) the attendant drop in score. We could not institute pair firing as it would disrupt the line and most shooters on that line were not going to Connaught and wanted to better their ratings and pursue national records.

So it was up to the individual.

Also to get the full effect of pair firing, you need to inject the random shooter who disagrees with your scoring or the other one who ignores your shots or better yet, writes them down wrong and so on.

When a fool resorts to name calling it is obvious he has not read the post in the positive vein it was intended.

And we wonder why the US team has such poor showing, year after year.

 

[memilanuk]

When a fool resorts to name calling it is obvious he has not read the post in the positive vein it was intended.

Ah... knowing Denys a little bit, I think his comment was somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek circular reference to himself. Maybe I'm just reading too much into that

And we wonder why the US team has such poor showing, year after year.

Ummm... excuse me? Which 'US team' are you referring to? Three consecutive FCWC team gold medals doesn't sound like a 'poor showing' to me...

 

[Berger.Fan222]

At our local club matches here we have been running more Fullbore matches than straight mid-range Prone. Seems to be well received by the F-class crowd in general, as we run things a little looser for the club matches. Gives an opportunity to squad father-son combos together (if they want), for someone to bring a buddy out to get their feet wet, etc. Seems like its a little less intimidating for the new shooters if they have a 'wind dummy' to follow when there's a big change or switch, rather than get into the string and get completely and utterly lost by themselves.

Ironically, it's the sling shooters that really don't seem to like the pair fire format... more specifically, when there's an odd number and someone gets stuck shooting three-to-a-mound. It's a long darn time to be stuck there in a coat n sling...

Not being familiar with the rules, it would seem some communication is necessary for a firing pair to help each other out on wind switches. I seem to recall that coaching is nor allowed when shooting for record in individual NRA matches. (Coaching is allowed during sighters.)

What is the rule for communicating between a firing pair when shooting for record?

 

[memilanuk]

Not being familiar with the rules, it would seem some communication is necessary for a firing pair to help each other out on wind switches. I seem to recall that coaching is nor allowed when shooting for record in individual NRA matches. (Coaching is allowed during sighters.)

What is the rule for communicating between a firing pair when shooting for record?

Technically the same as any other match. Coaching is only allowed during the sighter portion of individual stages with *unlimited* sighters - i.e. not Fullbore.

But if the person you're shooting with has been hitting the center consistently and suddenly nerfs one out the side... well, most people, even beginners, are bright enough to figure that one out. Conversely, you might 'overhear' someone grumble about a shot going right where they aimed... might be a hint that things down range aren't what they seem. Generally it's more of a moral support / positive affirmation thing: congratulating them on a good shot when they put it in the X-ring, or when they make a good wind call during a condition change and don't drop a point (or at least not as many as they might have). It's not like anyone is turning to their partner and saying 'hold on 3 rings left'; though on a really bad wind day, with a brand new shooter that's obviously flailing, I might. They're still going to probably come in last anyway - but there's a difference between 'last place' and 'humiliating, to the point they never come back'. For a local club match, I'm okay with bending the rules a little to prevent the latter from happening. Registered, or National level events... whole 'nother matter.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Ah... knowing Denys a little bit, I think his comment was somewhat of a tongue-in-cheek circular reference to himself. Maybe I'm just reading too much into that

As usual you are correct. It's what my wife calls me at times. And some of the guys at the club use something similar.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

When a fool resorts to name calling it is obvious he has not read the post in the positive vein it was intended.

And we wonder why the US team has such poor showing, year after year.

I am Canadian by birth and American by naturalization. Steveb's comment was very good and I commented on what Team Bayou did to prepare for it and I think we did just fine.

I'll tell you what, it was great going back to the range where I first started competing 35 years ago. I remember the targets being much bigger in those days.

 

[USMCDOC]

Matt, how is it not changing from what is currently being shot in the USA? This topic is designed to discuss change.

I enjoy the way WE shoot currently. This is one aspect of our shooting I want to remain.

Once again, just my thoughts.

It isn't about changing the game.. is about actually getting more shooters used to and prepared to shoot against "international" teams.. whom are used to shooting on the mount.. here in the States, shooters have a trend to rebuff the "shooting on the mound" concept.. and we wonder why we don't do better! Hmmmm

 

[swadiver]

When a fool resorts to name calling it is obvious he has not read the post in the positive vein it was intended.

And we wonder why the US team has such poor showing, year after year.

DA Bulls team F/TR 2017 World champions
USA

 

[XTR]

This is talking about individual shooting in the pair firing format so we can kind of leave teams out of it. (the US didn't suffer too badly at the FCWC teams events though)

The US individuals did pretty well in the FCWC. In F-TR the US had 6 of the top 10 shooters, including the world champion, and in F-Open we had 4 of the top 10. So I wouldn't say we did too badly at all considering most of the best in the world were assembled for that event.

 

[6fatrat]

Mark is a prone shooter and is referring to the Brits kicking our butts at the Worlds every 4 years.
Steve Bair

 

[DE-F-Open]

If you are looking for a range where you can shoot Fullbore (both sling and F-Class) using 2-to-a-mound, come to Bridgeville. Although the 2018 schedule is not yet finalized, we will have several Fullbore/2-to-a-mound matches. Both sling shooters and F-Class are always welcome at Bridgeville's matches - hope you can join us in 2018. The 2018 Match Schedule will be posted once NRA has sanctioned all the tournaments. Look for the schedule on our web site: www.bville-rifle-pistol.org.

On another matter contained in this thread -
NRA's High Power Rifle Committee met recently and voted to formally authorize 2-person teams. Hopefully this change in the Rules will be approved by the Competitions Rules & Programs Committee next month and by the whole Board in January, in time for the 2018 season. Additional (larger) team sizes were also recommended so as to give match directors more flexibility (also applies to Fullbore) and to give international teams more opportunities to shoot together (hopefully).

Many thanks to Imike for starting this conversation......

John

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Technically the same as any other match. Coaching is only allowed during the sighter portion of individual stages with *unlimited* sighters - i.e. not Fullbore.

Seems like there may be an exploitable loophole in pair firing - not coaching, but simply informing the other shooter in the pair what your hold is prior to each shot. The other shooter simply sees the outcome and draws his own conclusions about what he should do next.

For me, not knowing the hold of other shooters has always kept me from recommending or practicing making any adjustments based on where they are hitting (or even paying attention). If I do notice someone grumble about a horizontal 8 or 9, at most, I may have a closer look at the conditions before the next shot.

 

[Immike]

On another matter contained in this thread -
NRA's High Power Rifle Committee met recently and voted to formally authorize 2-person teams. Hopefully this change in the Rules will be approved by the Competitions Rules & Programs Committee next month and by the whole Board in January, in time for the 2018 season. Additional (larger) team sizes were also recommended so as to give match directors more flexibility (also applies to Fullbore) and to give international teams more opportunities to shoot together (hopefully).

John

Thanks for the info John. We may be including 2 man team soon locally and considering mixing the disciplines so everyone has a partner. It will be part of the match for one relay with separate awards. I can see several ways to do this for fun but if it becomes officially recognized with record keeping then that will become the course of fire standard.

 

[XTR]

Seems like there may be an exploitable loophole in pair firing - not coaching, but simply informing the other shooter in the pair what your hold is prior to each shot. The other shooter simply sees the outcome and draws his own conclusions about what he should do next.

That is the equivalent of pilot shot sighters, which are legal in some team formats, but in individuals that is not an exploitable rule, it's cheating.