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Over Annealing ?

I seriously can’t believe you guys are still discussing this and whipping out charts and data.

Heat them to a hint of faint dark red and move on.

Wow…. As someone so eloquently put it.
I keep a batch of "test dummy" brass to set up each time--get the flame and time right
Just like Clancy a dull red and move on

What I found was more consistent shoulder bump--made sizing easier--set it and go!
Made bullet seating "feel" more the same
And...I am now shooting the best I ever have --I am getting the tight groups at short and Long range that I always dreamed of considering the quality of my home assembled rifles.

It wears on your nerves at first and you will waste a little brass learning but soon it is like mowing the grass--Pop a beer and get to it
 
Those charts Webster is showing is from this document that was first posted here at least a decade ago if not longer, it's been going on for awhile :D... https://www.scribd.com/document/784920589/Engineering-Ex-Perv-00000-i-00359

Thank you TC260!!! Just finished reading it!!!
My take away is we are starting with roughly 6-9 micrometer already annealed cases, not huge grains in thick sheets, and then anneal like in the report!! What happens in annealing already work hardened annealed cases??? That is the data I've been searching for, for 40 years!!! The info from the military ballistics labs deal with finished, unfired cases!!! Most reports like these, mainly apply more to the case manufacturers than the reloader!!! But it gives the reloader some starting points!! I learned a little from the read!!!

Once again, thank you!!!
 
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Thank you TC260!!! Just finished reading it!!!
My take away is we are starting with roughly 6-9 micrometer already annealed cases, not huge grains in thick sheets, and then anneal like in the report!! What happens in annealing already work hardened annealed cases??? That is the data I've been searching for, for 40 years!!! The info from the military ballistics labs deal with finished, unfired cases!!! Most reports like these mainly apply more to the case manufacturers than the reloader!!! I learned a little from the read!!!

Once again, thank you!!!

You’re welcome! It’s a treasure trove of information for those with the background to make sense of it.
 
What caught my attention was the grafts, after the tables!! I got more insight from them then the tables!!
We now have 123 replies with no-one understanding simple annealing.
What’s to understand? 123 replies and no one has posted a single target to show how all of these hifalutin preached up hypothetical declarations effects where the bullet lands on the target. Some of it might matter if I was trying to design the AMP or a better annealer.

Accurateshooter.com. Right? ;)
 
What’s to understand? 123 replies and no one has posted a single target to show how all of these hifalutin preached up hypothetical declarations effects where the bullet lands on the target. Some of it might matter if I was trying to design the AMP or a better annealer.

Accurateshooter.com. Right? ;)
Oh? Is that all you wanted?
Well here then
"Over annealed"
Light neck tension
------------------------------
For Comparison, The last Pic, large group, is brand new unfired Non-annealed Peterson 284 brass
"Medium Neck Tension"
 

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What’s to understand? 123 replies and no one has posted a single target to show how all of these hifalutin preached up hypothetical declarations effects where the bullet lands on the target. Some of it might matter if I was trying to design the AMP or a better annealer.

Accurateshooter.com. Right? ;)
The target doesn't answer a lot of questions. :rolleyes: for example: why do I keep getting a flyer like that ;), why can't I get single digit SD's, why are my ES's so large, the OP question in this thread, questions as to whether zinc is actually being burned out of the brass and how hot it has to be to do so, and other questions like that. Responses are about providing some understanding of what one is doing, like when performing an annealing operation.

It's like informing someone about gasoline grades who's putting premium gasoline in their car that doesn't have a high compression engine or one with a supercharger where they're paying a lot and thinking they're getting a better running engine by doing so. o_O

Ignorance is bliss. . . but???;)
 
Oh? Is that all you wanted?
Well here then
"Over annealed"
Light neck tension
------------------------------
For Comparison, The last Pic, large group, is brand new unfired Non-annealed Peterson 284 brass
"Medium Neck Tension"
Are all these targets shot at short range ?
 
The target doesn't answer a lot of questions. :rolleyes: for example: why do I keep getting a flyer like that ;), why can't I get single digit SD's, why are my ES's so large
I think there are a couple of different views on the subject, myself I see several reasons we get flyers, if annealing was the simple cure than we’d all be annealing but we’re not’ and some of the best long range tuners in the country abandoned the deed or maybe do it annually, personally I’ve never really had a need or desire to start.

I’m also curious as to when annealing became the path to single digit SD ?

Jim
 
I think there are a couple of different views on the subject, myself I see several reasons we get flyers, if annealing was the simple cure than we’d all be annealing but we’re not’ and some of the best long range tuners in the country abandoned the deed or maybe do it annually, personally I’ve never really had a need or desire to start.

I’m also curious as to when annealing became the path to single digit SD ?

Jim
No Jim, I'm not saying or even suggesting that annealing is "the" path to single digit SD's. But in some cases, it could be a component of the equation. . . and in some cases it just doesn't even have to be a component of the equation. The part you quoted there is really the point I was trying to drive home.
 

It's a good paper but unfortunately it starts at an annealing time of 2 min. I thought it was interesting that he referenced the Walker paper that I posted as a "Landmark study" on the effects of annealing on cartridge brass. There was a lady that used to be on here that went by rifle woman, IIRC she was the one that originally posted that document on here. If you go back even further, '08ish , there was guy I think he went by Southern Marksman that posted a lot of good information on annealing but I think everybody other than Webster gets tired of arguing about it and moves on. I know I did :D

The crux of the issue to me wasn't the science of it, we can all read about that. The question to me at the time was whether or not it was better to stick with recovery annealing or is it better to fully anneal the brass.

Historically, whether it was referenced this way or not, the goal was recovery annealing. The old 750 tempilaq for 5 seconds or what ever that's fundamentally whats being done. Recovery anealing. Reduce the dislocation density without changing the grain structure. The result is a modest decrease in hardness along with a modest increase in ductility.

When AMP came along, whether they called it this or not, they were advocating full annealing. They wanted to see big changes in hardness and ductility. The only way that's accomplished is to cross over from the recovery phase into recrystalization and grow new large strain free grains. Fundamentally that's what all the fighting was about with salt bath annealing and other lower temp annealing methods. It's not that they don't work, it's that they're recovery methods so there isn't the big changes to the material properties.

Whether recovery annealing or full annealing is better, I don't have a horse in that race. It seems like most serious competitiors that are annealing have gone to full annealing with the AMP but time will tell. A decade from now it may all be different :D
 

You found one of the articles I read over last winter and have been looking for for this thread!!!!
ALL RELOADERS THAT ANNEAL SHOULD AT LEAST, READ THE 1ST 4 PAGES!!!

Table 1.3 explains why the OPs annealed cases failed!!!
The grain size of the designed case necks is between 0.005mm to 0.010mm!!!
The table only goes down to Annealled temper spec OS015 (0.015mm grain size)!!!! And, articles dealing with grain sizes 0.015mm or bigger should take the content of the article with a GRAIN OF SALT!!!!! We, as reloaders should avoid growing the grains and stop the annealing process after achieving RECRYSTALLIZATION!!! We don't want to grow the grains!!!

AND THAT IS WHAT CAUSED THE FAILURE OF THE OP'S CASES ON THIS THREAD!! TOO HIGH A TEMPERATURE FOR TOO LONG AND MADE SLIGHTLY BIGGER GRAINS THEN THE DESIGNED GRAIN SIZE!!! Probably, a couple micrometers too big!!!! And, dropped the yield and tensile (tension in the neck) strength!!!

From Table 1.3 also take note that the tensile strength and yield strength increase as the grain size gets smaller!!! That is why, as we start from the neck and move down towards the base of the case, the grain size decreases!!! Making it harder and increasing the yield and tensile strength as you move down the case!

Also take note (page 2, section 1.3, the Qualitative Statements, lower case Roman numerals i - vi) that as the grain size decreases, so too does the temp/time factor of recrystallization!!! But, the very short impulse time of hot working will increase the temp/time factor when the cartridge is fired!!! Increases in %CW shorten the temp/time factor!!! Long time, lower temperature annealed brass can recover from low cold work conditions!!!

This article also shows Tr (Recrystallization TEMPERATURE Starting Point) for 75%CW at 300C!!! I doubt that we get close to 75%CW!!! Later, I'm going to investigate and find how much CW is done in one cycle of reloading!!!! I believe it can be done using the WORK formulas in physics!!!!

Thank you VA_XTC_Shooter!!!!

I UNDERSTAND, GO WITH WHAT WORKS!!! BUT, SOME, LIKE ME, WANT TO KNOW HOW IT WORKS, AND MAYBE REFINE OUR ANNEALING PROCESS!!!
 
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That's a good one :D , which BTW has been in my library for the last few years and I've shared it a couple times myself.

Not really wanting to beat a dead horse;). . .
This is also in my library where the AMP website has a nice brief summary from Andrew Ouwejan at METLAB LTD that is easier reading for anyone not interested in the more fine details. :cool:



It's a good paper but unfortunately it starts at an annealing time of 2 min. I thought it was interesting that he referenced the Walker paper that I posted as a "Landmark study" on the effects of annealing on cartridge brass. There was a lady that used to be on here that went by rifle woman, IIRC she was the one that originally posted that document on here. If you go back even further, '08ish , there was guy I think he went by Southern Marksman that posted a lot of good information on annealing but I think everybody other than Webster gets tired of arguing about it and moves on. I know I did :D

The crux of the issue to me wasn't the science of it, we can all read about that. The question to me at the time was whether or not it was better to stick with recovery annealing or is it better to fully anneal the brass.

Historically, whether it was referenced this way or not, the goal was recovery annealing. The old 750 tempilaq for 5 seconds or what ever that's fundamentally whats being done. Recovery anealing. Reduce the dislocation density without changing the grain structure. The result is a modest decrease in hardness along with a modest increase in ductility.

When AMP came along, whether they called it this or not, they were advocating full annealing. They wanted to see big changes in hardness and ductility. The only way that's accomplished is to cross over from the recovery phase into recrystalization and grow new large strain free grains. Fundamentally that's what all the fighting was about with salt bath annealing and other lower temp annealing methods. It's not that they don't work, it's that they're recovery methods so there isn't the big changes to the material properties.

Whether recovery annealing or full annealing is better, I don't have a horse in that race. It seems like most serious competitiors that are annealing have gone to full annealing with the AMP but time will tell. A decade from now it may all be different :D

Hopefully when referring to "fully annealed" brass it's understood that means it's in a dead soft state ( like at 65 HV). :rolleyes:
 
It's a good paper but unfortunately it starts at an annealing time of 2 min. I thought it was interesting that he referenced the Walker paper that I posted as a "Landmark study" on the effects of annealing on cartridge brass. There was a lady that used to be on here that went by rifle woman, IIRC she was the one that originally posted that document on here. If you go back even further, '08ish , there was guy I think he went by Southern Marksman that posted a lot of good information on annealing but I think everybody other than Webster gets tired of arguing about it and moves on. I know I did :D

The crux of the issue to me wasn't the science of it, we can all read about that. The question to me at the time was whether or not it was better to stick with recovery annealing or is it better to fully anneal the brass.

Historically, whether it was referenced this way or not, the goal was recovery annealing. The old 750 tempilaq for 5 seconds or what ever that's fundamentally whats being done. Recovery anealing. Reduce the dislocation density without changing the grain structure. The result is a modest decrease in hardness along with a modest increase in ductility.

When AMP came along, whether they called it this or not, they were advocating full annealing. They wanted to see big changes in hardness and ductility. The only way that's accomplished is to cross over from the recovery phase into recrystalization and grow new large strain free grains. Fundamentally that's what all the fighting was about with salt bath annealing and other lower temp annealing methods. It's not that they don't work, it's that they're recovery methods so there isn't the big changes to the material properties.

Whether recovery annealing or full annealing is better, I don't have a horse in that race. It seems like most serious competitiors that are annealing have gone to full annealing with the AMP but time will tell. A decade from now it may all be different :D

I totally agree TC260!!!!
Articles that deal with unannealed samples AND grain size SPEC OS015 (0.015mm) and bigger don't really relate to cartridge case annealing!!!!
 
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Wow!!! I'll take my statements BACK about wanting to just achieving full RECRYSTALLIZATION!

After reading QUALITATIVE STATEMENT iv. (page 2) again, which states that the amount of CW dictates the RECRYSTALLIZATION size!! The more CW, the smaller the size of the recrystallized grain!!! Therefore, some grain growth is needed to get back to the original grain size with no CW!! Hardness testing will determine if you recovered the original grain size!! Or load cell bullet seating!! Unless you want to do destructive analysis and invest in very fine polishing compounds, etching solutions, and high powered microscope and count grains per unit area!!! Time to invest in a small ball penetrater, hand held, hardness tester and start testing!!

Cases need full annealing!!!!

Using the Qualitative Statements means the OP could recover his over annealed cases if he so chooses!!!!! CW a few times (reload and fired rounds for plinking and/or fouling), then anneal!!!
 
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