Over Annealing ?

[gdbleb]

Like, this is what can happen to the brass when they get too hot (this done by the aztec testing by an AMP machine):
View attachment 1665645
Zinc will be burnt out when brass reaches a melting point.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm curious if it is easy to clean out an AMP after this.

 

[SKWERLZ]

How did we get from did I over anneal to poison oysters and welding galvanized sheet metal.

 

[ebb]

^^^^^^How did we get to "a guy on u tube said." Oh I forgot everything on the internet is true? Magic sounds about right.

 

[Old Navy]

Looks like your flame is too high on the necks, needs to come down on the shoulder more. Did you have residual cleaning solution or lube left on the neck, maybe you burned something off? The bevel cut is also quite excessive so you’re pretty thin at the end of the neck, have you noted any splitting?

Cased were fired but not clean. I have never split any necks. I over heated the neck/shoulder to the point that it ruined them. I loaded up a few of my favorite load and they didn't shoot good at all. The extreme spread was twice what it was before. This barrel has never shot very well so I just ordered a .22 BR barrel and 200 Lapua cases.

 

[searcher]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I'm curious if it is easy to clean out an AMP after this.

It is not a problem as one might think

 

[Webster]

Cased were fired but not clean. I have never split any necks. I over heated the neck/shoulder to the point that it ruined them. I loaded up a few of my favorite load and they didn't shoot good at all. The extreme spread was twice what it was before. This barrel has never shot very well so I just ordered a .22 BR barrel and 200 Lapua cases.

How did you determine the cases were ruined? Was it because of the ES spread? How long were the necks red? I would have squeezed the necks to see if they lost strength.

 

[SKWERLZ]

How did you determine the cases were ruined? Was it because of the ES spread? How long were the necks red? I would have squeezed the necks to see if they lost strength.

Same!
If someone developed a load for rock hard necks you can’t expect it to shoot with a well annealed necks.
I had to change my loads when I started annealing but I definitely see the benefits of it.


I also learned a bit heavy on the heating when annealing is better than a bit too light.

 

[searcher]

Relative to those "carbon stains" in your brass, I have encountered many circumstances where such dark stains to the necks and shoulders occur. In my experience, while all such stains arose when subjecting the brass to heat, it doesn't occur only when annealing. The colorations/stains in your brass are also exactly like what one can encounter with brass that was fired from A/R's. It is not just soot, it is a coloration that goes into the brass, such as what you show. This coloration is accentuated when the gun has residual oils/lubes in the chamber Also, if one sizes their brass with certain lubes and does not remove all of it, then decides to anneal, the lube reacts with the heat, producing the same look on brass, even though the brass was not overly annealed. Same thing with neck turning and not removing all the lubes/oils before annealing. Low pressure loads which allow gas to escape around the mouth of the brass to the exterior of the neck and shoulder area will do that as well.

Looking at your brass photo, I see absolutely nothing wrong in respect to having damaged anything. I used to polish my brass for hours in my tumbler to get rid of such stains (and they will come out, eventually), yet I no longer do that. Brass is quite tolerant of being over-annealed and will become hard again after one or more firings. It isn't until it gets so hot that it starts turning dark purple below the neck area that there should be any concern. Conversely, once it reaches a point of where any distortion occurs - that is when the brass is absolutely trashed, having incurred irreversible change to the metallurgy. What makes annealing with flame so tricky is that different brands of brass don't change color the same, leading one to think they are over-doing one brand or not doing the other enough. I had one brand that, once annealed to resemble the color of new Lapua brass, it was no longer capable of properly holding a bullet. While a firing or two would re-harden the necks - it simply added a few hundred rounds down my barrel that were non productive.

 

[Old Navy]

How did you determine the cases were ruined? Was it because of the ES spread? How long were the necks red? I would have squeezed the necks to see if they lost strength.

Orange for approximately 3 seconds. The brass is Peterson 6XC necked down to .22XC. I just resized a few cases down using a .010 smaller bushing than the loaded neck OD. Feels the same as .003 smaller when seating the bullets.

 

[DShortt]

Yep
Welding galvanized is nasty

Damn. Every day I hear about something new that will kill me soon that I did multiple times when young and dumb.
Just as well. I don't worry about that. It'll happen when it's time.

 

[William Vogel]

Here’s what my brass looks like after 14 sizings and it still shoots 3 inch groups at 700 yards. 223AI

 

[Webster]

Orange for approximately 3 seconds. The brass is Peterson 6XC necked down to .22XC. I just resized a few cases down using a .010 smaller bushing than the loaded neck OD. Feels the same as .003 smaller when seating the bullets.

I anneal with a single torch till it's red/orange for about 1 second. 3 sec red shouldn't damage the neck. I have no idea what the hardness is. I just keep shooting them at ground hogs. They don't know how I anneal. I have a little over 20 firings on each case. The necks still have very good stiffness. I don't put the very hot tip of the flame on the neck like others do.. I push the neck into the flame so it wraps around the neck. I assume I get more even heating. Even though I am not in the hottest part of the flame, it reaches red in about 9 seconds. Squeeze the neck hard with your fingers, if you cannot make it oval by a tiny amount you still have good hardness and you’re not close to getting the neck soft. Compare to squeezing an unannealed or new case neck.

Good luck. Keep shooting.

 

[dellet]

Can you ruin brass by over heating the neck?

This is what the brass looks like. I have tried every chemical and even Brasso to remove it. Nothing will touch it. The brass is Peterson 6XC necked down to .22XC. I just resized a few cases down using a .010 smaller bushing than the loaded neck OD. Feels the same as .003 smaller when seating the bullets.

You can’t ruin brass by overheating, unless you melt it. Otherwise what is softend by heat, annealing, can be hardened buy working the brass. It’s just a matter of if it’s worth the time.

The discoloration of the neck and shoulders, is basically an art form, Japanning.

Different oils and additives left on a surface and heated, in some ways similar to hot blueing. Back before anodizing it was the Henry Ford method of coloring metals, you could have any color you wanted as long as it was black. A good example would be blackened nuts and bolts. Coat them in oil bake them in the oven. You end up with a nice darkened surface that was hard to remove. If you apply used motor oil, the carbon and other by products turn deep black and are almost impossible to remove.

As for annealing, or stress relieving the body of the case, it’s not really a problem if you’re just applying heat to the neck and shoulder area. During the forming process of the case, what becomes the body is annealed multiple times. it’s impossible to stretch a brass plug 2-3” without the process.

Forming wildcats, or even obsolete cases often requires annealing the body. Probably the best example is using a pistol case as a donor like a 357 maximum to get a rimmed 222/223 based cartridge. If you don’t anneal the body, you’re likely to get splits at or below the shoulder. 256 win mag from 357 magnum is another good example.

Then there is using “basic brass”. Starline has started offering some, it’s also part of what gave Bertram brass it’s poor reputation and problem of cases cracking. Very poor or no final annealing after the forming process.

Here’s the actual warning from Starline when using basic 223.

This brass is the same as our standard .223 Remington brass except that it has not been formed and has no caliber designation on the headstamp. It should work perfectly for most .223 Remington based wildcats. This brass has not been annealed, and will require a body anneal prior to forming, and possibly a neck anneal after forming, depending on how far it is necked down. Wall thickness at the mouth of this brass is approximately .009", which is the same as our .223 brass prior to forming (the walls will get thicker when formed down, and the case will also get longer). Shorter wildcats may require a neck turn to achieve proper wall thickness at the neck. Length is approximately 1.800"

 

[ELR LVR]

Like, this is what can happen to the brass when they get too hot (this done by the aztec testing by an AMP machine):
View attachment 1665645
Zinc will be burnt out when brass reaches a melting point.

Booyah!
THANK YOU!
--------------------
For those that are saying they are annealing at this temp and staying within the safe zone etc etc
Fine, I commend you.
You are not the type of person I am trying to help or correct.
Did you know there are some people who don't know how to anneal brass yet?
Who dont know how to even monitor the temp
Who are newbies at this and unless not only told how to do it right
Also do not get told how..... NOT TO DO IT.

 

[ELR LVR]

Not disagreeing with you but when brazing, the melted brass fuses the base metal parts together and the brass filler rod that melted is still brass. I’ve never taken it so hot to boil the brass but I’ve liquified the steel and it still bonded together and held. The brass that the OP has shown in the picture never melted. My annealing process takes the coloring down the body past the body shoulder junction just like many factory cases. I do this intentionally because the die sizing moves all this and I want it to loose hardness also.

The problem is more when oxygen is allowed to come into contact with the metal without any form of protection
Steel itself will actually do the same thing I am talking about, boil, bubble, become porous,
spit pop and sputter etc. ......if there is no shielding to protect the surface layer.
You ever see someone's welds.... who THINKS they know how to weld
yet it looks like a porous bubbly mess, even though the 2 base metals are fused together?

You can weld and melt steel, stainless, brass Alum. etc... just fine (if there is some form of shielding)
When brazing, you need some sort of flux right?
--------------
And for what it's worth here, you CAN anneal with an oxy/acetylene torch
if you know what you're doing, since the bottles will likely last for years and it is a good somewhat inexpensive manner of doing so since it only takes maybe 3 seconds to get the brass dull red
I just don't recommend it to most people unless they are a Journeyman welder who has years of experience with a Victor and knows how to set and adjust their regulators and most importantly knowing to never adjust the Acetylene past 15 psi since that amount of compression alone can cause combustion.
Much like diesel will self ignite with the right amount of compression/PSI
Acetylene only needs 15 PSI
---------------
Hence why I have said if a person sticks to propane they should not have any problems

 

[William Vogel]

The problem is more when oxygen is allowed to come into contact with the metal without any form of protection
Steel itself will actually do the same thing I am talking about, boil, bubble, become porous,
spit pop and sputter etc. ......if there is no shielding to protect the surface layer.
You ever see someone's welds.... who THINKS they know how to weld
yet it looks like a porous bubbly mess, even though the 2 base metals are fused together?

You can weld and melt steel, stainless, brass Alum. etc... just fine (if there is some form of shielding)
When brazing, you need some sort of flux right?
--------------
And for what it's worth here, you CAN anneal with an oxy/acetylene torch
if you know what you're doing, since the bottles will likely last for years and it is a good somewhat inexpensive manner of doing so since it only takes maybe 3 seconds to get the brass dull red
I just don't recommend it to most people unless they are a Journeyman welder who has years of experience with a Victor and knows how to set and adjust their regulators and most importantly knowing to never adjust the Acetylene past 15 psi since that amount of compression alone can cause combustion.
Much like diesel will self ignite with the right amount of compression/PSI
Acetylene only needs 15 PSI
---------------
Hence why I have said if a person sticks to propane they should not have any problems

Yes, with brazing there is a flux. It’s to shield the joint from oxidation. I was really referring to breaking down the alloy with heat and that in molten state it still remains brass alloy. I was also suggesting that when we anneal, we’re not reaching anywhere near molten state and that it takes quite a bit of work to damage the brass cartridges. They can be damaged with heat but I haven’t done it and I tend to push them after a blow up or breakage, I learn the limits. I haven’t done either with reloading and brass prep.

 

[ELR LVR]

Yes, with brazing there is a flux. It’s to shield the joint from oxidation. I was really referring to breaking down the alloy with heat and that in molten state it still remains brass alloy. I was also suggesting that when we anneal, we’re not reaching anywhere near molten state and that it takes quite a bit of work to damage the brass cartridges. They can be damaged with heat but I haven’t done it and I tend to push them after a blow up or breakage, I learn the limits. I haven’t done either with reloading and brass prep.

I agree with you.
In all points here
I suppose what I was trying to offer here without debating metallurgical finepoints
was saying, in relation to the OP,
Yes, damage CAN be done if over heating, how to recognize what overheating would actually be,
what is actually happening and why it damages the brass
--------------------------------------------
FWIW, one of the reasons brass does stay an alloy when melted is exactly because it is being protected from oxidation. It is in a liquid molten state The same as when it was smelted to begin with
When not protected, this is what allows and starts the chemical reaction of the zinc with oxygen.
Being a welder I would have thought myself that brass could be Tigged, since the joint is being protected with Argon
I tried it once
Guess what happened? The zinc started to bubble and pop out of solution, and giving off the telltale White Fuming.... even though it was being protected.
So it must have been the temp it got up to with the TIG torch vs playing a flame on it when brazing.
I've Tigged Straight Copper so I know it was not the copper causing this reaction.
Regardless of my various methods of experience dealing with, brazing, soldering, welding- Brass...
unless a Guy is melting the brass (hence my point as safest with sticking to propane)
then NO, they cannot hurt it by over annealing it, And that there is a difference from
OVER ANNEALING, or REPEATED ANNEALING
vs.
OVER HEATING (which is Melting)
So unless a guy is MELTING, the brass he is not doing "over anything" to it
Does this make more sense?
And again this advice is more for people who have none to little experience with annealing and don't yet know what to look for or how to prevent damage.
(Basically don't sit there and leave the flame on it until it starts to melt lol
Know how to get it a Dull Cherry Red in the dark
and you're good)
Whatever type of flame it takes and however many seconds it takes to achieve this

 

[Wild Bill IV]

I agree with you.
In all points here
I suppose what I was trying to offer here without debating metallurgical finepoints
was saying, in relation to the OP,
Yes, damage CAN be done if over heating, how to recognize what overheating would actually be,
what is actually happening and why it damages the brass
--------------------------------------------
FWIW, one of the reasons brass does stay an alloy when melted is exactly because it is being protected from oxidation. It is in a liquid molten state The same as when it was smelted to begin with
When not protected, this is what allows and starts the chemical reaction of the zinc with oxygen.
Being a welder I would have thought myself that brass could be Tigged, since the joint is being protected with Argon
I tried it once
Guess what happened? The zinc started to bubble and pop out of solution, and giving off the telltale White Fuming.... even though it was being protected.
So it must have been the temp it got up to with the TIG torch vs playing a flame on it when brazing.
I've Tigged Straight Copper so I know it was not the copper causing this reaction.
Regardless of my various methods of experience dealing with, brazing, soldering, welding- Brass...
unless a Guy is melting the brass (hence my point as safest with sticking to propane)
then NO, they cannot hurt it by over annealing it, And that there is a difference from
OVER ANNEALING, or REPEATED ANNEALING
vs.
OVER HEATING (which is Melting)
So unless a guy is MELTING, the brass he is not doing "over anything" to it
Does this make more sense?
And again this advice is more for people who have none to little experience with annealing and don't yet know what to look for or how to prevent damage.
(Basically don't sit there and leave the flame on it until it starts to melt lol
Know how to get it a Dull Cherry Red in the dark
and you're good)
Whatever type of flame it takes and however many seconds it takes to achieve this

Well stated!!! However, there is one thing going on that very few know about!!! Heating brass (70/30) at, or beyond 500C (932°F) causes unwanted twin grain growth!!! Too much twin grain growth can lead to micro fracture in the grain and boundary structure leading to a split!!!!!

ARE WE TRULY ANNEALING OR ARE JUST STRESS RELIEVING??????

Stress relieving brass is the process of heating below the nominal temperature which softens the brass and reduces cracking without changing the grain size and associated boundaries!!! Stress Relieving is basically a Recovery process of the cold hardening of thebrass!! Annealing require holding the heat at 300C (572°F) to 400C (752°F) for a certain time limit (15 seconds in most of my research)!!! ANNEALING is the recovery of the grain, recrystallization, and new grain growth!!! Complete grain growth takes more than 24 hours, and the HV (Vickers Scale) hardness will increase some!!! At 370C (698°F), the grain size is around 8 microns (Sizing only)!! At 400C (752°F), grain size averages at 10 micron and is really soft (great for making wildcats)!!!!

Go to the Norma web page and they show and tell why different parts of the case have different grain structures and sizes!!! This explains why I used water/antifreeze bath in my homemade broiler type furnace (propane/oxygen) and removed the pan full of cases 15 to 20 seconds after the cleaned and shiny, soft lead turkey buck shot completely melts (in the middle of the pan on a post with a beer cap bowl)!!!! Lead melts at 327.5C (621.5°F)!!! All the cases are heated to the same temperature for the same amount of time, giving more uniform hardness after a few days rest!!! The pre-cleaned 223 cases looked like they came out of the LC arsenal except the head stamps were WCC 79!! And, the time in the furnace allowed for the brass Recovery and Recrystallization processes!!! The complete grain growth was in the rest time!!!! I no longer have that furnace because I had to renew a contract on the oxygen bottle!!!

I tried attaching a downloaded masters thesis of some research done at Norma, but the PDF is too big for the restriction limits of posts!!!

 

[Wild Bill IV]

One other point in the Master thesis PDF file was the HV (Vickers scale hardness) is different (softer) close to the mouth of the neck, the middle of the neck, and closer to the neck/shoulder junction (harder)!!! And it makes sense!!! The mouth of the neck will heat up faster and cool faster!!! It is a heat sink!!!! Near the shoulder/neck junction, it is a heat store that requires more time to heat and cool!!!!

FOR THOSE THAT CAN MEASURE THE HARDNESS OF THE NECK, YOU SHOULD SEE THIS!!! However, the TRUE Vickers Scale hardness testing is sinking a very sharp, pyramid diamond into the brass with a certain force (pressure) and measuring the distance from the opposing corners of indentation or the depth of travel of the point!!! Both methods are directly related geometrically!!! This is destructive testing!!! Meaning, the sharp point will lead to slitting of the case neck!!!! Those using Vicker Scale hardness testers, check to see if you are leaving a pointed imprint!!! If they are, mark those cases and be aware of the possibility of neck splitting!!! If they don't leave an impression, please explain to the rest of us how they work!!!!!

 

[William Vogel]

I agree with you.
In all points here
I suppose what I was trying to offer here without debating metallurgical finepoints
was saying, in relation to the OP,
Yes, damage CAN be done if over heating, how to recognize what overheating would actually be,
what is actually happening and why it damages the brass
--------------------------------------------
FWIW, one of the reasons brass does stay an alloy when melted is exactly because it is being protected from oxidation. It is in a liquid molten state The same as when it was smelted to begin with
When not protected, this is what allows and starts the chemical reaction of the zinc with oxygen.
Being a welder I would have thought myself that brass could be Tigged, since the joint is being protected with Argon
I tried it once
Guess what happened? The zinc started to bubble and pop out of solution, and giving off the telltale White Fuming.... even though it was being protected.
So it must have been the temp it got up to with the TIG torch vs playing a flame on it when brazing.
I've Tigged Straight Copper so I know it was not the copper causing this reaction.
Regardless of my various methods of experience dealing with, brazing, soldering, welding- Brass...
unless a Guy is melting the brass (hence my point as safest with sticking to propane)
then NO, they cannot hurt it by over annealing it, And that there is a difference from
OVER ANNEALING, or REPEATED ANNEALING
vs.
OVER HEATING (which is Melting)
So unless a guy is MELTING, the brass he is not doing "over anything" to it
Does this make more sense?
And again this advice is more for people who have none to little experience with annealing and don't yet know what to look for or how to prevent damage.
(Basically don't sit there and leave the flame on it until it starts to melt lol
Know how to get it a Dull Cherry Red in the dark
and you're good)
Whatever type of flame it takes and however many seconds it takes to achieve this

We’re on the same page.

I built guitar amps for years as a side business and am still on forums and offer advice for repairs. About half the people there also service their own equipment. I struggle with how much they weigh the option of lock out tag out when working on electrical equipment. These are vacuum tube amplifiers and they operate on between 400-500 volts within their power supplies. It’s impossible to diagnose and repair an amp without being powered on but they tell others don’t do it, it’ll kill you. It won’t kill you, it’ll stand your hair up and then next time you’ll be more careful about putting your hands in there.