Over Annealing ?

[Martin52]

This is what the brass looks like. I have tried every chemical and even Brasso to remove it. Nothing will touch it.

I have some brass that looks similar. It is brass that I gas annealed after using an oily cloth to remove carbon on the outside of the necks. Seems some of the oil remained on the necks and got burnt on. After subsequent firings the necks remain discolored. All my other brass looks clean by comparison. In my case the discoloration does not mean the brass is over annealed, it shoots the same as the rest of my 'clean' brass.

 

[Clancy]

I can’t tell you if the brass is over annealed by my standards without being there to run some spring back tests (which you can do for yourself.)

I can tell you to take it down about 5 notches with the chamfer and deburr tool- without being there.

How did you anneal these cases?

 

[SeabeeKen]

Thats correct,
When I was in the welding business we had to be cautious of welding on Galvanized steel
due to the ZINC fumes
Zinc in brass will do the same thing

I recall back when we were kids, my sister got horribly sick from oysters steam on a galvanized plate over a fire. It was a coating but still burned off and contaminated the oysters. I also recall welders getting ill from welding galvanized metal during my career in construction

 

[SKWERLZ]

Thats correct,
When I was in the welding business we had to be cautious of welding on Galvanized steel
due to the ZINC fumes
Zinc in brass will do the same thing

Yep
Welding galvanized is nasty

 

[Old Navy]

I can’t tell you if the brass is over annealed by my standards without being there to run some spring back tests (which you can do for yourself.)

I can tell you to take it down about 5 notches with the chamfer and deburr tool- without being there.

How did you anneal these cases?

 

[Webster]

Yep
Welding galvanized is nasty

How did we get from did I over anneal to poison oysters and welding galvanized sheet metal.

 

[JMayo]

A guy on YouTube says no such thing as over annealing !
I suppose as long as the case isn't deformed it'll harden back up.
A light glow is what i always did with a bench source.
My amp, i don't know what it looks like in there but i do know not to pick a dropped one up bare handed, even by the base.

 

[Clancy]

@Old Navy its pretty tough to overdo cases on a machine. Were they red? Dull red? Bright red? How long?

I can post some pics of a spring back test or text you a video if you want.

 

[Old Navy]

@Old Navy its pretty tough to overdo cases on a machine. Were they red? Dull red? Bright red? How long?

I can post some pics of a spring back test or text you a video if you want.

They were bright red/orange for approximately three seconds. Thanks for the offer on your test and video. I will pass on that for now. Thanks. Frank

 

[Clancy]

They were bright red/orange for approximately three seconds. Thanks for the offer on your test and video. I will pass on that for now. Thanks. Frank

Probably (anlmost definitely) overdid it.

A hint of a faint dark red in a dark room is all you need, with the torch pointed at the neck shoulder junction.

 

[Old Navy]

Probably overdid it.

A hint of a faint dark red in a dark room is all you need, with the torch pointed at the neck shoulder junction.

There were several things I did differently that led up to this screw up. The next batch should come out a lot better.

 

[ELR LVR]

The boiling temp is the boiling temp of the alloy not the boiling temp of copper or zinc. The brass will melt long before you reach a boiling temp.

No Sir,
Simply Google the boiling temp of Zinc at 907C
Then check out the MELTING temp of brass being typically
from 900-940°C
The 2 are so close together do you see the possible problem if you get brass hot enough to melt ?
It is not LONG before, .......it is almost at the same point.
--------------------------------------------------
Must I really break out the Oxy/ Acetylene torch and show everyone what happens to brass if you do get it too hot?
--------------------------------------------------
One of the main points I'm trying to make here is
As long as you DON'T use an Oxy/acetylene torch ....which is not outside the realm of possibility
Such as a guy using a #2 brazing tip thinking if it is fine enough for brazing it could be used for annealing
As long as a person sticks to propane they should have no issues overheating the brass.

 

[Webster]

No Sir,
Simply Google the boiling temp of Zinc at 907C
Then check out the MELTING temp of brass being typically
from 900-940°C
The 2 are so close together do you see the possible problem if you get brass hot enough to melt ?
It is not LONG before, .......it is almost at the same point.
--------------------------------------------------
Must I really break out the Oxy/ Acetylene torch and show everyone what happens to brass if you do get it too hot?
--------------------------------------------------
One of the main points I'm trying to make here is
As long as you DON'T use an Oxy/acetylene torch ....which is not outside the realm of possibility
Such as a guy using a #2 brazing tip thinking if it is fine enough for brazing it could be used for annealing
As long as a person sticks to propane they should have no issues overheating the brass.

We are annealing at about 1000F-1100F not 1700F.

 

[243winxb]

Annealing is Voodoo and witchcraft.

 

[Dave M.]

Can you ruin brass by over heating the neck?

This is what the brass looks like. I have tried every chemical and even Brasso to remove it. Nothing will touch it. The brass is Peterson 6XC necked down to .22XC. I just resized a few cases down using a .010 smaller bushing than the loaded neck OD. Feels the same as .003 smaller when seating the bullets.

You can absolutely over anneal brass and cause dezincification

 

[Dave M.]

I have some brass that looks similar. It is brass that I gas annealed after using an oily cloth to remove carbon on the outside of the necks. Seems some of the oil remained on the necks and got burnt on. After subsequent firings the necks remain discolored. All my other brass looks clean by comparison. In my case the discoloration does not mean the brass is over annealed, it shoots the same as the rest of my 'clean' brass.

Clean the necks first with alcohol, and once dry hit the neck and shoulders with 0000 steel wool. Discoloration gone.

 

[Straightshooter1]

No Sir,
Simply Google the boiling temp of Zinc at 907C
Then check out the MELTING temp of brass being typically
from 900-940°C
The 2 are so close together do you see the possible problem if you get brass hot enough to melt ?
It is not LONG before, .......it is almost at the same point.
--------------------------------------------------
Must I really break out the Oxy/ Acetylene torch and show everyone what happens to brass if you do get it too hot?
--------------------------------------------------
One of the main points I'm trying to make here is
As long as you DON'T use an Oxy/acetylene torch ....which is not outside the realm of possibility
Such as a guy using a #2 brazing tip thinking if it is fine enough for brazing it could be used for annealing
As long as a person sticks to propane they should have no issues overheating the brass.

Like, this is what can happen to the brass when they get too hot (this done by the aztec testing by an AMP machine):

Zinc will be burnt out when brass reaches a melting point.

 

[Webster]

Like, this is what can happen to the brass when they get too hot (this done by the aztec testing by an AMP machine):
View attachment 1665645
Zinc will be burnt out when brass reaches a melting point.

Probably a mixture of Cu oxide and zinc oxide. Nothing to do with the OP's question - does over annealing a little ruin brass. He wasn't asking about what happens if you go 500F- 600F above typical annealing temperatures.

 

[Rwfish]

Looks like your flame is too high on the necks, needs to come down on the shoulder more. Did you have residual cleaning solution or lube left on the neck, maybe you burned something off? The bevel cut is also quite excessive so you’re pretty thin at the end of the neck, have you noted any splitting?

 

[William Vogel]

If you use an Oxy/Acetylene torch it will
Same thing that happens when you take a torch to Galvanized metal
the Zinc burns out and leaves behind a white powdery film
--------------------
Never seen this happen with a propane torch though
--------------------
If you ever try TIG welding brass thinking zinc will not burn out, just because it's being shielded by a Noble Gas......get back to us on how that worked out

Boiling point of Copper is 2562°C.
Boiling point of Zinc = 907 C
When you get it hot enough for the zinc to boil and the copper doesn't
It's no longer an alloy
When metals boil, they act the same way as water does when it boils
It's not just melted, It's boiling and bubbling and bouncing and of course when it does that more surface area is being exposed to O2 so then oxygen is reacting with it accelerating the reaction going on and so on.
------------------
I found this out when i used to melt down gold into ingots/ buttons ......Gold boils too
Found out quickly why you want flux on top, so ya don't loose your gold from it boiling and bubbling and bouncing all over the floor everywhere
If you let your gold boil it does make a much more interesting more natural looking nugget though
Likely exactly what happens in nature in certain conditions via hot steam

Not disagreeing with you but when brazing, the melted brass fuses the base metal parts together and the brass filler rod that melted is still brass. I’ve never taken it so hot to boil the brass but I’ve liquified the steel and it still bonded together and held. The brass that the OP has shown in the picture never melted. My annealing process takes the coloring down the body past the body shoulder junction just like many factory cases. I do this intentionally because the die sizing moves all this and I want it to loose hardness also.