Optimal case to push 147 ELD?
- Thread starter cchtx7
- Start date
Ok, next question. How much time do you want to spend detailing, fire forming, or wildcatting brass? I'm with shoot4fun, short necks of 260/260AI not the best idea. 6.5x47 or Creedmoor are more than enough to do what you want, plus give you extra trigger time with the longer barrel life. Also less time at the loading bench, with quality brass, just load and go. Seems to be lots of good advice, I hope we are not overloading you?/!+$#
I would be willing to bet a lot more matches are won with the Bergers. As far as cost goes, I pay 30.00 a hundred for 6mm and 42.00 a hundred for 30 cal. I can't see that being a whole lot more. Matt
I don't think I'll mind the extra reloading steps because it's all a bit intriguing to me actually. I normally shoot only .223 and .308, and I have the urge to try something new. Wildcats have always interested me and I like to reload, plus the ackley process doesn't seem that bad at all. I'd probably just use a standard 260 load for the first 100 cases and be done with it instead of the COW method though.
The relatively short neck of the case is definitely a con. Up until recently I didn't realize just how much the case neck matters, and that was what made me consider a long throated 6.5x47 for heavier bullets. The 260 AI seems to be a bit more naturally suited to shoot the heavies. I've contacted a local smith with lots of first hand experience using the 260 AI and 147 ELD's, so I'll get his opinion on this comparison as well.
So far out of all the cartridges brought up as alternatives, the 6.5x55 and it's improved variants have been the most appealing. Seems it can push the heavier 6.5 projectiles to the same or greater speeds than a 260 AI with less work, but may require a long or short action depending on the variant (BJAI vs Addiction). It also has a longer neck than the 260 case. I'm still learning a ton and hearing from people with real world experience is invaluable, so thank you for your replies!
Sure. Over 3000 rounds, you've paid for your next barrel by switching to the cheaper ELDMs. I don't shoot matches. A once in a while odd shot doesn't matter one lick to me. My "odd" shots are typically 0.2MOA out. People should honestly evaluate if that is meaningful for the cost for them.
Don't get stuck on speed. The difference isn't as important as you'd think. A 147 going 3000 will still miss if you don't call the wind correctly. The difference between 2750 and 3000 is small, maybe 2mph difference in wind.
Damn straight. Ballistics don't do too much for you. Compare something tiny like a 6mm 105 at 2950fps and a big 6.5 shooting a 147 at the same speed at 1200 yards. With the 6mm 105 you miss a 2 MOA target when your wind call is off by 1.1 mph. With the big 6.5 147 you miss a 2 MOA target when your wind call is off by 1.4 mph. Big case, lots of recoil, way more energy, less barrel life, and all you got was 0.3 mph of wind call forgiveness.
Story from a few weeks ago out at my local shooting spot. Doing final dope testing with my 6 BRA on a smallish 1275 yard target. A couple guys showed up at the same time, they were shooting big 300 RUM's with 230gr bullets. I load 5 rounds in the mag, send the first shot and see my miss left. Make a quick correction and hit the plate 3 times in a row. The 300 RUM guys send 5-10 rounds each and never hit the target... weren't spotting their misses well and making good corrections before the conditions changed.
More than likely those misses by the guys with the big 30s is lack of experience. 1275 is a poke and nobody can hit that target with out experience shooting that range, regardless of the size of the plate. The 6mm isn't that impressive vs a 300 RUM with 230s. With a bc in the .7s for the 30 and .55 for the 6mm, it's a no brainer at 1275 in wind. The big 30 will just kick ur Azz alot more during the experience. Point taken tho, there is not all that much difference in drop or windage in 200 fps with a good high bc bullet.Damn straight. Ballistics don't do too much for you. Compare something tiny like a 6mm 105 at 2950fps and a big 6.5 shooting a 147 at the same speed at 1200 yards. With the 6mm 105 you miss a 2 MOA target when your wind call is off by 1.1 mph. With the big 6.5 147 you miss a 2 MOA target when your wind call is off by 1.4 mph. Big case, lots of recoil, way more energy, less barrel life, and all you got was 0.3 mph of wind call forgiveness.
Story from a few weeks ago out at my local shooting spot. Doing final dope testing with my 6 BRA on a smallish 1275 yard target. A couple guys showed up at the same time, they were shooting big 300 RUM's with 230gr bullets. I load 5 rounds in the mag, send the first shot and see my miss left. Make a quick correction and hit the plate 3 times in a row. The 300 RUM guys send 5-10 rounds each and never hit the target... weren't spotting their misses well and making good corrections before the conditions changed.
For sure, it's not the RUM's fault they didn't hit the target. But their ballistic advantage didn't help them much. These guys do a lot of long range shooting, I know them and they aren't incompetent. I got hits because I watched closely in the scope where my first miss went, measured it in the reticle and sent three more in quick succession. They kept sending single rounds every 30 seconds or so, conditions would change and wind call would be wrong (no flags or mirage here, cross canyon shooting). Target was pretty narrow, only about 1 MOA wide.
Just pointing out that you can't always "caliber" your way into more hits, there are additional factors at work.
You are more proficient at the game for sure.
As an easy wildcat, how about a 6.5slr improved. Runs 140 Berger's easily @ 2950 without hammering brass or barrel.
The improved Blows out the shoulder a bit, and keeps the long neck, all in a short action mag length.
Brass options are 308 lapua Palma as the perfect parent case - small primer.
The improved Blows out the shoulder a bit, and keeps the long neck, all in a short action mag length.
Brass options are 308 lapua Palma as the perfect parent case - small primer.
The 147 works great in a short action like the Creedmoor. I get 2820fps from it in my 27" barrel and the ballistics are excellent. I load them at .030" which is about 2.860" and fits great in AICS mags. I use H4350 but some with RL26 are getting more velocity.
Factory 147 ELD load is about 2720fps in my rifle and they do very well also.
Factory 147 ELD load is about 2720fps in my rifle and they do very well also.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
I would bet that a 2000 round count on a PRC would be possible only using a mild load. The case capacity is almost identical to the 6.5-284. Neck length and shoulder angle differences should not make a dramatic difference. By the way, the SAAMI specs call for a max pressure of 65,000psi. Run them like that and barrel will go down hill rapidly.
Bill
All the above is good info to enable some decision. I do real informal shooting.
I have a 6.5X55, 6.5X47L (long throat), 6.5-.308 (stubby necked) & 6.5-06's (small collection). Of the whole bunch I like shooting targets with the 6.5X47 and general use including rodents is the 6.5-06. The fat 6.5X55 case head will not fit in my Rem 700 bolt face but is just fine in my FN Mauser(s), and Ruger M77 MKII(s). The twist rates for all except the 6.5-.308 (9) are 8. The 6.5X47 keeps up with the 6.5-06 fairly well with only a 150 fps difference but there is a difference should velocity be a priority. I don't think any 300 meter matches have been won with a 6.5-06 vs the 6.5X47 Lapua. Brass is extremely cheap and abundant for the 6.5-06, should I lose some, no big deal. As far as I know, Lapua is the only source for pricy, long life, tough 6.5X47 brass but there are numerous sources for 6.5 Creedmore including Lapua, small primers also.
Looking at the previous, I would go for the 6.5 Creedmore. Another consideration would be the wider variety of powders that would work in the Creedmore vs. a bigger round and longer barrel life with the small round. It appears that shooters seek higher velocities to get into the next higher "accuracy node" and some slower, less pressure but greater barrel life load in a big case may not deliver the best accuracy. Loaded up to higher velocities and optimum accuracy the 6.5-06 eats barrel innards quickly. I think any cartridge selection should not be limited to using the 147 Hornady ELDM exclusively.
At times I like to shoot 95 & 100 grain bullet at rodents but lots of self restraint is needed with the 6.5-06. Should you wish to use the new rifle on rodents think about some of the other 6.5mm plastic tipped expandable bullets such as the Hornady 95 Vmax, 100 Hornady ELDM, and I think Sierra makes a 107 TMK (good form factor & high velocity). A smaller 6.5 like the Creedmore having a 8 twist (not optimum for shorter & light weight bullets) will drive the light plastic tipped bullets well over 3000 fps with good accuracy for ranges well over 1/4 mile. I think the ricochet danger of 140 grain and heavier bullets having thicker jackets (the 140 Berger target bullets) would be greater than lighter, fragile jacket bullets (the speedy 95 Vmax) - have a good backstop.
I have a 6.5X55, 6.5X47L (long throat), 6.5-.308 (stubby necked) & 6.5-06's (small collection). Of the whole bunch I like shooting targets with the 6.5X47 and general use including rodents is the 6.5-06. The fat 6.5X55 case head will not fit in my Rem 700 bolt face but is just fine in my FN Mauser(s), and Ruger M77 MKII(s). The twist rates for all except the 6.5-.308 (9) are 8. The 6.5X47 keeps up with the 6.5-06 fairly well with only a 150 fps difference but there is a difference should velocity be a priority. I don't think any 300 meter matches have been won with a 6.5-06 vs the 6.5X47 Lapua. Brass is extremely cheap and abundant for the 6.5-06, should I lose some, no big deal. As far as I know, Lapua is the only source for pricy, long life, tough 6.5X47 brass but there are numerous sources for 6.5 Creedmore including Lapua, small primers also.
Looking at the previous, I would go for the 6.5 Creedmore. Another consideration would be the wider variety of powders that would work in the Creedmore vs. a bigger round and longer barrel life with the small round. It appears that shooters seek higher velocities to get into the next higher "accuracy node" and some slower, less pressure but greater barrel life load in a big case may not deliver the best accuracy. Loaded up to higher velocities and optimum accuracy the 6.5-06 eats barrel innards quickly. I think any cartridge selection should not be limited to using the 147 Hornady ELDM exclusively.
At times I like to shoot 95 & 100 grain bullet at rodents but lots of self restraint is needed with the 6.5-06. Should you wish to use the new rifle on rodents think about some of the other 6.5mm plastic tipped expandable bullets such as the Hornady 95 Vmax, 100 Hornady ELDM, and I think Sierra makes a 107 TMK (good form factor & high velocity). A smaller 6.5 like the Creedmore having a 8 twist (not optimum for shorter & light weight bullets) will drive the light plastic tipped bullets well over 3000 fps with good accuracy for ranges well over 1/4 mile. I think the ricochet danger of 140 grain and heavier bullets having thicker jackets (the 140 Berger target bullets) would be greater than lighter, fragile jacket bullets (the speedy 95 Vmax) - have a good backstop.
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I am a big 6.5 fan and have shot the barrels out of four 260s and three 6.5x284s and a couple of 6.5x55s. I am also on my second 6.5 Creedmoor barrel now. If I was going to do what your talking about, out of all of them I have shot, I would go right back to the 6.5x55. It has enough case to push the 147s where you want to go and they are not that hard on barrels like the 6.5x284s. if you use the slower powders. They are as accurate as any 6.5 I have ever shot. I built mine on a Remington 700 and had no trouble with the bolt face and brass both Remington and Lapua. I would do exactly what your talking about doing but I can NOT give up my 284 for long range shooting. It will last close to 3000rds on a barrel and I have shot it out to a mile. Theyhit hard and are deadly accurate and I love them!!!
Checking out my 6.5X55 brass, that fits just fine in my FN Mauser; the rims are .475; extractor groove .410; body just in front of extractor groove .474. My push feed Rem 700 SA, S/N 6498NNN (circa 1980? with rivet) will not work with this brass. The finger nail type extractor will not easily snap over the rim and the .410 extractor groove prevents the extractor from getting enough grip on the rim to pull out the fired round. This rifle works best with rounds based on the .308 Win. I suppose, I could mash everything together but at what expense to reliability and the tiny little Rem 700 extractor.
I sort of remember that Remington at one time produced a M700 chambered for 6.5X55; in any event it would have had a different bolt face/extractor than my rifle or brass with different dimension..
The 6.5X55 fits and feeds just fine in my commercial FN Mauser. There are no limitations on bullet seating; COAL for some of my ammo is 3.10.
I got to admit the 6.5X55 looks like a practical cartridge but with those rim, groove, and body dimensions it is sort of an odd ball number. I don't know what the logic was to design the 6.5X55 with those dimensions. Possibly somebody thought that funny stuff like that was better because it was different. Fortunately, it does not have weird primer pocket dimensions.
Should a decision be made to select a 6.5X55 with an unaltered Rem 700 check out things to see if it works. The 6.5X55 dimensions as shown in my Hornady manual are: rim .480, groove .403, body .480. Possibly, there might be wide variations in 6.5X55 brass dimensions.
RCBS has a different shell holder for the 6.5X55 - #2, for other brass having .473 size the shell holder is #3.
I sort of remember that Remington at one time produced a M700 chambered for 6.5X55; in any event it would have had a different bolt face/extractor than my rifle or brass with different dimension..
The 6.5X55 fits and feeds just fine in my commercial FN Mauser. There are no limitations on bullet seating; COAL for some of my ammo is 3.10.
I got to admit the 6.5X55 looks like a practical cartridge but with those rim, groove, and body dimensions it is sort of an odd ball number. I don't know what the logic was to design the 6.5X55 with those dimensions. Possibly somebody thought that funny stuff like that was better because it was different. Fortunately, it does not have weird primer pocket dimensions.
Should a decision be made to select a 6.5X55 with an unaltered Rem 700 check out things to see if it works. The 6.5X55 dimensions as shown in my Hornady manual are: rim .480, groove .403, body .480. Possibly, there might be wide variations in 6.5X55 brass dimensions.
RCBS has a different shell holder for the 6.5X55 - #2, for other brass having .473 size the shell holder is #3.
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