Optics in Service Rifle competition...

[XTR]

It appears that there has at least there has been a significant cold wave in Hades, and the CMP is allowing scopes (up to 4.5x and 34mm obj.) and collapsible stocks in Service Rifle competition in 2016. http://thecmp.org/2016-cmp-rifle-and-pistol-rule-changes/

The real question, Is there any chance of an actual freeze and the NRA following suit, or are they just going to re-name the class "Obsolete Rifles Formerly used by the Military"?


(I also like the change that if your gun doesn't feed it's not an alibi. I never understood that one, but then my first experience in competition was IPSC where if your gun doesn't feed you loses)

 

[hpshooter]

I believe the new rule will also create a new class called tactical service, separate from traditional service rifle and match rifle.

Anyway, I am guessing it will keep some of us middle of the road, failing vision, older shooters in the game and the NRA may warm to it since they did the same thing to keep conventional bullysye shooting alive years ago.

In small bore the hard shooters basically shoot the same score with irons as they do scopes.

T W Hudson

 

[XTR]

I think the CMPs idea that it will bring in more shooters who will "bring what they have" to the game.

AR pattern rifles are the fastest selling thing in the store today, just not in an A2 pattern. Not too many guys are ready to go out and plunk down the $$ for a competition upper with an aperture rear, an A2 fore end, and a fixed stock. That's just not a configuration that anyone is buying in an AR unless it is for competition. I think this might just get some more new shooters on the line. (how many times have I read the whine "if I can't use my [brake/can/feed from a mag] I just won't shoot F class". This lets em get out and shoot their tacticool gear.

 

[M14AMU]

I don't like the idea....AT ALL!!

 

[hpshooter]

One of my buddies is still not happy that you can start the rapids in position but I know of 3 people who are still shooting because you can. That includes me.

If in fact they are shooting a separate class I have no problem with it. Especially if it brings more people to the line.

T W Hudson

 

[cjmill87]

There are extensive conversations on this subject over on the National Match forum. The NRA will follow suit and recognize optic-equipped rifles in the service category shooting alongside iron-sighted rifles, same category. There has been a separate any sight match/tactical rifle category for some time that allows unlimited optics.

 

[DR1586]

It won't be in a separate class from iron sighted rifles. The CMP doesn't do classes other than a few special awards. For a leg match, all non-distinguished shooters are counted the same.

The scope won't make you a high master overnight, but it may keep some folks shooting a service rifle. I don't mind the optic so much, but allowing a ton of external modifications will be the downfall of service rifle shooting. If you want to shoot an optic, fine. But the exterior appearance and dimensions should be the same as the M4 or M16A4.

 

[aloreman]

It ruins service rifle competition. It all started with the cmps every kid gets a soccer trophy pins. I am hurrying to leg out then goin back to m14s. Turning service rifle into position f class isnt going to save the sport.

 

[1shot]

I stepped away from shooting XTC several years ago, so I haven't stayed current with new rules, etc. From what I read hear, your telling my that I can yank my old match rifle out of moth balls (AR-15 in 6AR) drop a 4.5x scope on it and shoot side by side with long time, big name dedicated Hi power shooters on equal ground?
Lloyd

 

[cjmill87]

Lloyd,

You can certainly pull the match rifle out but it still has to be chambered for .223/5.56 in order to qualify as a service rifle. You can put a better scope on it and shoot it as an any sight match rifle, you'll fall under Rule 3.3.2 not 3.1.

 

[XTR]

If I read what is being done correctly they have added a limit of 11.5lbs to scoped rifles, which means you can't put a scope on your 18lb "service rifle", and scoped are limited to 4.5x and 34mm objectives. nBarrels are limited to 20" but you can shoot a carbine length barrel. Based on what I've seen from the scores in PBCR shooting where scopes and irons shoot side by side, the scores don't change.

As to external modifications, I don't see where external mods make much difference one way or another in position shooting, esp with the weight limit.

From the CMP site:

More Options For M16/AR15-Type Rifles. Since accurized Service Rifles first came into popular use in the 1950s and 1960s, those rifles, whether M1s, M14s or M16s and their commercial equivalents, have been rigidly defined. Legal M16-type service rifles had to retain the external profile of an M16A2 or M16A4 rifle and could only have modifications that were explicitly permitted in the rules. All this will change in 2016. The 2016 service rifle rules will state that M16/AR15-type Rifles must be “an M16 U. S. Service Rifle or a similar AR15 type commercial rifle that is derived from the M16 service rifle design” and there will be far fewer specific restrictions. 2016 restrictions will simply require M16/AR15-type rifles that:

• Are chambered for the 5.56 x 45 mm (.223) NATO cartridge.
• Are designed or modified for semi-automatic fire only.
• Have either a gas-impingement system or a piston-operated gas system.
• Have a barrel that is no longer than 20 inches, with or without a flash suppressor (16” barrels are permitted).
• Use one upper receiver and barrel for the entire match.
• Have a trigger pull of at least 4.5 pounds.
• Use standard service magazines or commercial equivalents that do not contain added weights.
• Have a fixed or collapsible butt-stock that may vary in length and even be adjusted between firing stages. Butt-plates or cheek-pieces may not, however, be adjustable.
• Have a standard A1 or A2 pistol grip.

This will open the way for competitors to use a wider variety of M16/AR-16-type rifles. The imposition of a weight limit for scope-sighted rifles reflects a long-simmering concern over how heavy Service Rifles became when there was no weight limit. 15, 18 or even 20-pound rifles are far removed from the original service rifle weights. Opening Service Rifle shooting to optical-sighted rifles offered an opportunity to at least establish a reasonable weight limit for these rifles before they come into widespread use in Service Rifle competitions.​

 

[m1jeff]

The weight limit has gone away, rumor is the NRA wasn't on board with that restriction. No one has ever been forced to weigh down their rifle...

We shall soon see what the final version of the rules really are, as they are supposed to be in effect tomorrow.

Happy New Year!

 

[DR1586]

Last I heard the weight limit was being removed from the final version. The CMPs rules as written in their most recent statement allow far too many variations in my opinion. This is an organization that wouldn't allow short magazines a few years ago, and now I can put whatever stock or float tube I want and still call it a service rifle. I get the whole idea of getting more people involved, but we shouldn't change the entire game to get more players.

I just can't believe how much the CMP has changed. I remember when they said a clip on brass deflected wasn't service rifle legal....a daggon brass deflector! Now it's bring what you have, and we'll pretty much allow it. The optic makes sense as it is in-line with the current issued rifle and supporting equipment. But the overall rifle should be kept at least close to an M4 or M16A4 platform. The idea has always been to keep the equipment more or less equal, hence all shooters being in the same "classification" for all CMP matches.

Well I'll get off my soapbox now, but I reserve the right to complain more in the future.

 

[MGYSGT]

I think everyone is missing the point. We are suppose to emulate the Military Qualification event. They no longer shoot Iron sights, so we should move on also. I will say this. I am one of those who can no longer focus on the target/sight and still see good enough to shoot well. I put a cheap old 4X on my rifle and am amazed at how much my score improved. Now that I can see the target that is. For those of you who can still see well enough to shoot irons, go for it. For the rest of us old bat rastards, get yourself a 4X and start enjoying the sport again. I applaud the CMP for moving forward. Otherwise you would still be using 03's instead of AR's.

 

[DR1586]

I think everyone is missing the point. We are suppose to emulate the Military Qualification event. They no longer shoot Iron sights, so we should move on also. I will say this. I am one of those who can no longer focus on the target/sight and still see good enough to shoot well. I put a cheap old 4X on my rifle and am amazed at how much my score improved. Now that I can see the target that is. For those of you who can still see well enough to shoot irons, go for it. For the rest of us old bat rastards, get yourself a 4X and start enjoying the sport again. I applaud the CMP for moving forward. Otherwise you would still be using 03's instead of AR's.

I agree that the optics being allowed is a progressive move that aligns the sport with what is being used on a service rifle. My main issue is the lax rules on the configuration of the rifle. Take a NM A4 and put a scope on it and I'm good with that. But to allow varying styles of float tubes, adjustable stocks (although limited in adjustment), etc and you no longer have a service rifle. What you have is a modern sporting rifle (MSR) being shot on the NM Course. Since I came into the sport, that was a match rifle and should remain as such. As you say, it should emulate the military qual course, well it should emulate the equipment as well.

 

[MGYSGT]

I agree about the float tubes, however, adjustable buttstocks are part of the military A4 also. I can't say all are, but I saw some Armory issued in that mode, last time I shot at 29 Palms. I will add this. Some of the A2's we see on the range, only look like A2's. they have free float handguards and some sort of inner attachment for the sling swivel that doesn't touch the barrel. I am pretty sure the CMP allows that as well. In any event, I a glad for the scope. The rest I don't really mind.

 

[1shot]

I have two more questions if I may.
1. All my uppers have a loading port on the left side to ease in loading in slow fire, as I'm left handed. Will this interfere with the new rules?
2. With these new rules will it negate a shooter from moving up from their current classification?
Thanks,
Lloyd

 

[m1jeff]

1shot:

1. We are waiting on the published rules to come out before we can see for sure on that.
2. No.

 

[m1jeff]

MGYSGT, I thought that quad rail free floating hand guards were being issued now. I know the Marine Highpower teams have been using them for a couple of years, apparently to better reflect the issue rifles.

 

[XTR]

How is it any different to allow any float tube vs putting on a float tube and hiding it under an A2 guard like my White Oak?

I don't mean that as a confrontational question. I mean it not understanding how it will make any difference other than how it looks? Is it something that will make a difference on the target?