Opinnons on Bull Bag or Ballistic Shooting Bag
- Thread starter Losthwy
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The problem with the Bull Bag style is it is difficult to get good shooting form while seated at a bench...and getting on target is cumbersome. A separate rear sand bag and mechanical front rest is best, although a sandbag on sturdy stackable blocking in lieu of a mechanical rest can also give satisfactory results.
I have never used a Bulls Bag, but I am always leery of overzealous claims by the company as presented in their advertizing, and the Bulls Bag website has sample targets that are quite "optimistic" in their measuring of groups.
I believe the pinching of the stock in the bag affects recoil much in the same way as the lead sled (although possibly not as much)......IMHO the muzzle is nowhere near the same position (as when fired off hand) as the bullet exits the barrel. Therefore sighting in with these two types of rests will net a different POI than off-hand or bi-pod shooting.
I believe the pinching of the stock in the bag affects recoil much in the same way as the lead sled (although possibly not as much)......IMHO the muzzle is nowhere near the same position (as when fired off hand) as the bullet exits the barrel. Therefore sighting in with these two types of rests will net a different POI than off-hand or bi-pod shooting.
Let me help your understanding in these regards to Bulls Bag and Lead Sleds and attention to DETAIL!
False... What about mechanical (Metal/Metallic) shooting rests, will they reduce recoil as claimed?
NO shooting rest can claim to reduce recoil and be factual. Newton’s third law states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, when one object exerts a force on another object, the second object exerts a force of equal strength in the opposite direction on the first object. Likewise, when a shooter fires his or her gun, he or she will experiences the recoil generated by the gun. The "kick" felt by the shooter is the reaction force upon the gun which is equal in magnitude to the force that pushes the bullet.
IMPORTANT:
Metal/metallic shooting rests can magnify/amplify harmonic vibration caused by the firing of the gun, increasing additional unwanted variations on the target.
QUESTION 7 >>>
True... Is there a problem when Recoil is redirected or altered by a shooting rest...like LEAD SLEDS?
YES...It simply takes an unnatural direction, which is not relative to the same line-of-sight as the barrel and will negatively change its point-of-impact, affecting repeatability. In some designs, it is known that damage has occurred to some gun stocks when the gun and scopes can not recoil in its natural direction (equal and opposite) and the energy is absorbed by the stock and optics, (not recommended). Must have a flat surface for these rests designs and impossible for use in the field.
CONCLUSION ABOUT BULLS BAG:
Engineering Solution:
The Bulls Bag engineered design distributes the weight equally over a greater surface area, (10†to 15†- depending on model) that has proven this produces the absolute best shooting environment. Reducing the pounds per square inch on the rifles forearm is critical and with no support needed behind the trigger guard, which will create variables in shooting accuracy when used.
False... What about mechanical (Metal/Metallic) shooting rests, will they reduce recoil as claimed?
NO shooting rest can claim to reduce recoil and be factual. Newton’s third law states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, when one object exerts a force on another object, the second object exerts a force of equal strength in the opposite direction on the first object. Likewise, when a shooter fires his or her gun, he or she will experiences the recoil generated by the gun. The "kick" felt by the shooter is the reaction force upon the gun which is equal in magnitude to the force that pushes the bullet.
IMPORTANT:
Metal/metallic shooting rests can magnify/amplify harmonic vibration caused by the firing of the gun, increasing additional unwanted variations on the target.
QUESTION 7 >>>
True... Is there a problem when Recoil is redirected or altered by a shooting rest...like LEAD SLEDS?
YES...It simply takes an unnatural direction, which is not relative to the same line-of-sight as the barrel and will negatively change its point-of-impact, affecting repeatability. In some designs, it is known that damage has occurred to some gun stocks when the gun and scopes can not recoil in its natural direction (equal and opposite) and the energy is absorbed by the stock and optics, (not recommended). Must have a flat surface for these rests designs and impossible for use in the field.
CONCLUSION ABOUT BULLS BAG:
Engineering Solution:
The Bulls Bag engineered design distributes the weight equally over a greater surface area, (10†to 15†- depending on model) that has proven this produces the absolute best shooting environment. Reducing the pounds per square inch on the rifles forearm is critical and with no support needed behind the trigger guard, which will create variables in shooting accuracy when used.
I Should address the concerns to comfort and claim in Accuracy and Repeatability with Bulls Bag...
While some users as present in this topic, believe the Bulls Bag may be uncomfortable when trying to get on target :-\, while on the bench... may simply be a user error
! The design comes from basic engineering formula. Weight and Balance, Wide Footprint and Low Center-Of-Gravity. The cradle height on the 10-15" bags is 3.5 inches. While when on some fixed benches at the range have a fixed bench top... it may be that the bags is not to low... just that your seat is to high ???. The design of the bag is to be behind the gun... not resting beside it! SIMPLY lower the seat 
. Also Bulls Bag has several models, that are twice as high to fit those wanting more reaching 7.5". Items #1801 and the X7-SYSTEM.
In regards to Bulls Bag claims and targets showing extreme accuracy... is just that! Most of the targets shown are that of consumers, who have chosen to share their Results! Bulls Bag claims to Outperform ALL others, so where is the fluff? Just Science NO Hype.
FYI: My background in helping Browning Arms Co., to get the BOSS System on target in the mid-90's was the joint effort of Morgan, Utah and Bulls Bag R&D Dept. Yep! Sometimes with more than one head you can create synergy. But when you get to many heads... you can create a Monster. Enjoy
While some users as present in this topic, believe the Bulls Bag may be uncomfortable when trying to get on target :-\, while on the bench... may simply be a user error
! The design comes from basic engineering formula. Weight and Balance, Wide Footprint and Low Center-Of-Gravity. The cradle height on the 10-15" bags is 3.5 inches. While when on some fixed benches at the range have a fixed bench top... it may be that the bags is not to low... just that your seat is to high ???. The design of the bag is to be behind the gun... not resting beside it! SIMPLY lower the seat . Also Bulls Bag has several models, that are twice as high to fit those wanting more reaching 7.5". Items #1801 and the X7-SYSTEM.In regards to Bulls Bag claims and targets showing extreme accuracy... is just that! Most of the targets shown are that of consumers, who have chosen to share their Results! Bulls Bag claims to Outperform ALL others, so where is the fluff? Just Science NO Hype.
FYI: My background in helping Browning Arms Co., to get the BOSS System on target in the mid-90's was the joint effort of Morgan, Utah and Bulls Bag R&D Dept. Yep! Sometimes with more than one head you can create synergy. But when you get to many heads... you can create a Monster. Enjoy
Well, I went to Bulls Bag web site AGAIN after reading the sales pitch posted above. If it is used as demonstrated in the sites video by the guy with the 6.5 x 47L then it is not much different than shooting from a bipod.....the shooter "steers" the gun with his shoulder, and with his elbows unanchored....so much for single point contact.
I would like to know what "flex" is caused by the good old fashioned sandbag fore and aft system. I do know that the Bulls Bag is not legal in IBS Benchrest competition. The video BTW is pretty entertaining.....but does not give the product much credibility.
I would like to know what "flex" is caused by the good old fashioned sandbag fore and aft system. I do know that the Bulls Bag is not legal in IBS Benchrest competition. The video BTW is pretty entertaining.....but does not give the product much credibility.
jp
Silver $$ Contributor
Dave, I use something like that setup myself. I bought my bulls bag years ago , its the camo and suede bench model, I truly love mine its one of the best investments I have made. lying prone with a box made with 1x4's and a pc of 3/4" plywood with a 2x2 glued to the inside corners and adjustment screws in the ends of the 2x2's to get it up, it works well. I actually did very well in a couple of friendly shoots.
Dave/ jp-----I am glad you got the product to work for you. Myself, I do not see any advantage what-so-ever over using seperate front and rear sand bags- with or without a front tri-pod. I am usually turned off to products that have their advertizing loaded with hype, espousing it to be the best system-bar none. The ad has several claims which are simply not factual.
BTW the site does NOT recommend using any other bags in conjunction with the Bulls bag......but what do they know.
BTW the site does NOT recommend using any other bags in conjunction with the Bulls bag......but what do they know.
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
Any standard hunting-type rifle, I shoot off a Harris-type bipod up front and a standard leather squeeze bag in the rear. It's good enough.
One trick to using the squeeze bag is that if you're squeezing it a lot, it's not going to be consistent. You want do to all the coarse adjustment with fore-and-aft movement. The squeeze is strictly fine adjustment.
YMMV,
One trick to using the squeeze bag is that if you're squeezing it a lot, it's not going to be consistent. You want do to all the coarse adjustment with fore-and-aft movement. The squeeze is strictly fine adjustment.
YMMV,
I love all the chat...
Let me help the matter... A one bag system, IF USED CORRECTLY posses some very positive results over rests designs with multiple contact points. One pressure point on a gun can not cause a variable. WHY? Because it requires more than one contact with the gun and two opposing forces to demonstrate deviations in wind-age and elevations. Why do you think in 'Comp' you see a shooter... after aligning zero... back away from the gun and shoulder and trigger guard and simply reach in and touch the trigger? I'll tell you! because ANY multiple contacts on the gun create a variable...
Bulls Bag design does not act like a Lead Sled in ANY regards. The vise-grip design on the sides of the forearm, simply hold the gun steady, while taking aim and do nothing to reduce recoil, after the gun has been fired. The gun reacts naturally and flow equal and opposite has promoted!
NOW... The Sled is reproducing the same results as if you took your gun and backed it up against a cendar-block wall! The heal is supported with the butt end secured and than the design is weighted down so the 'Recoil' is not "felt" by the shooter. Do you think the energy was reduced??? Hell No. It was altered and driven into the stock and other parts of the gun. OH, this has to be good on a guns longevity.
I do not have any guns I will backup to a wall and shoot. But some time you just can't fix stupid...lol
I no not all shooters are the sharpest knife in the kitchen.
I am asked often by many shooters, how do you get a 10-year old to shoot SUB-Moa at 100 and 1-MOA at 300 and 8-MOA at 600 yds. OH YEA... Off A BULLS BAG. It Is Really Simple... He Has NOT formed any bag habits yet.
Bulls Bag claims to accuracy and repeatability are factual. Anyone who disputes this has simply purchased something else and like a motorcycle helmut, could be are Opinionated. While the fact are facts, while do other rest owners choose to downgrade the Bulls Bag, when it just simply works. I know... because they spent good money on other designs with knobs, straps, adjustments, bells and whistles and look really trick. I understand the rules in comp and the guns ability to have to be removed 'effortlessly', as part of the criteria. But don't you think it would make good science to know what the gun is capable of achieving, before heading to the bigger event!
I think you can also look at the endorsement of NTOA, Natl Tactical Officers Association rating the Bulls Bag as 'Tested and Recommended'! I Don't think any other rest in the market that is a sand bag or soft goods product is carrying the same approval. I also can note the Bulls Bag is used by DOD, Special Operation, Sniper Detachment, Law Enforcement and is distributed World-Wide, including 14 International countries.
And for all those who have strong opinions about the real results of Bulls Bag, you may want to visit the LE portion of the site and become more familiar with the Maryland State Police-Sniper Division, at Fort Meade, last June in a five day comp... 30 team event. OH, did I mention the MD Team-Bulls Bag took first place!
http://www.bullsbag.com/Law_Enforcement_DOD_Special_OPS_AR_Shooting_Rest_s/99.htm
I am not here to sell anything... not even Bulls Bag. I just get my feathers ruffled when I see 'shooters' who enjoy putting their two-cents in... when they are not spending more than $100. I mean that they only spent a $100 on a helmut and that is because they only have a hundred dollar head. I luv to express my thoughts... just like all the others. Have a great day and save the ammo
Let me help the matter... A one bag system, IF USED CORRECTLY posses some very positive results over rests designs with multiple contact points. One pressure point on a gun can not cause a variable. WHY? Because it requires more than one contact with the gun and two opposing forces to demonstrate deviations in wind-age and elevations. Why do you think in 'Comp' you see a shooter... after aligning zero... back away from the gun and shoulder and trigger guard and simply reach in and touch the trigger? I'll tell you! because ANY multiple contacts on the gun create a variable...
Bulls Bag design does not act like a Lead Sled in ANY regards. The vise-grip design on the sides of the forearm, simply hold the gun steady, while taking aim and do nothing to reduce recoil, after the gun has been fired. The gun reacts naturally and flow equal and opposite has promoted!
NOW... The Sled is reproducing the same results as if you took your gun and backed it up against a cendar-block wall! The heal is supported with the butt end secured and than the design is weighted down so the 'Recoil' is not "felt" by the shooter. Do you think the energy was reduced??? Hell No. It was altered and driven into the stock and other parts of the gun. OH, this has to be good on a guns longevity.
I do not have any guns I will backup to a wall and shoot. But some time you just can't fix stupid...lol
I no not all shooters are the sharpest knife in the kitchen.
I am asked often by many shooters, how do you get a 10-year old to shoot SUB-Moa at 100 and 1-MOA at 300 and 8-MOA at 600 yds. OH YEA... Off A BULLS BAG. It Is Really Simple... He Has NOT formed any bag habits yet.
Bulls Bag claims to accuracy and repeatability are factual. Anyone who disputes this has simply purchased something else and like a motorcycle helmut, could be are Opinionated. While the fact are facts, while do other rest owners choose to downgrade the Bulls Bag, when it just simply works. I know... because they spent good money on other designs with knobs, straps, adjustments, bells and whistles and look really trick. I understand the rules in comp and the guns ability to have to be removed 'effortlessly', as part of the criteria. But don't you think it would make good science to know what the gun is capable of achieving, before heading to the bigger event!
I think you can also look at the endorsement of NTOA, Natl Tactical Officers Association rating the Bulls Bag as 'Tested and Recommended'! I Don't think any other rest in the market that is a sand bag or soft goods product is carrying the same approval. I also can note the Bulls Bag is used by DOD, Special Operation, Sniper Detachment, Law Enforcement and is distributed World-Wide, including 14 International countries.
And for all those who have strong opinions about the real results of Bulls Bag, you may want to visit the LE portion of the site and become more familiar with the Maryland State Police-Sniper Division, at Fort Meade, last June in a five day comp... 30 team event. OH, did I mention the MD Team-Bulls Bag took first place!
http://www.bullsbag.com/Law_Enforcement_DOD_Special_OPS_AR_Shooting_Rest_s/99.htm
I am not here to sell anything... not even Bulls Bag. I just get my feathers ruffled when I see 'shooters' who enjoy putting their two-cents in... when they are not spending more than $100. I mean that they only spent a $100 on a helmut and that is because they only have a hundred dollar head. I luv to express my thoughts... just like all the others. Have a great day and save the ammo
The rambling is when others form an incorrect evaluation and determination of "any product", that they feel inclined to give a direction. This Just Happens To Be The BULLS BAG! This is a Accuracy Forum... I thought, 
so not only should ALL shooters desire SUB-MOA, the comments should be of fact, not of best guess! 
Should you wish to pick another subject in regards to Accuracy and Repeatability, after the purchase of the gun and scope... ;Dlight me up!
I speak from experience, proven facts, trial and error, solid engineering formulas, expertise and research and development 8). While I can always learn for my companions in the shooting industry new tricks and advancements... I Don't offer my direction, without backing them up with hard evidence, that what I am saying is just a best guess.
I engage in topics, that I have complete understanding in and will stay clear of those subjects, that may leave egg on my face or influence others to make a bad decision in their pursuit for more accuracy on target.
I think this is a fair approach... :-\ Don't You? I desire to help those who want correct answers. Is this the direction of this forum or not...??? ???
so not only should ALL shooters desire SUB-MOA, the comments should be of fact, not of best guess! Should you wish to pick another subject in regards to Accuracy and Repeatability, after the purchase of the gun and scope... ;Dlight me up!
I speak from experience, proven facts, trial and error, solid engineering formulas, expertise and research and development 8). While I can always learn for my companions in the shooting industry new tricks and advancements... I Don't offer my direction, without backing them up with hard evidence, that what I am saying is just a best guess.
I engage in topics, that I have complete understanding in and will stay clear of those subjects, that may leave egg on my face or influence others to make a bad decision in their pursuit for more accuracy on target.
I think this is a fair approach... :-\ Don't You? I desire to help those who want correct answers. Is this the direction of this forum or not...??? ???
I like my bulls bag for shooting critters off the hood of my truck or atv. For load workup at the bench no way.
jp
Silver $$ Contributor
LHSmith, Thank you for your comment to me and Dave. I can not speak for him. But for me I did not watch the video or info commercial. The Bulls bag for me works fine. It may not work for everyone. I do not use it in benchrest shooting either. And I am not saying any one should run out and buy it. I was just trying to be of some help to the person that asked about it. For me if I planned on shooting where a bi-pod was needed I would buy a bi-pod. Which I do have a few of and they work great also. I guess the shooter has to ask himself? What is my plans and type of shooting am I going to do? Then purchase the tool that best fits the application..
again thank you for your reply.. Happy Memorial Day JP
again thank you for your reply.. Happy Memorial Day
JPLHSmith said:
In Regards To The 'ENTERTAINING' Videos... my shooter friend!
None of the 'Videos' with live shooting were developed by the company... just shooters who have a little passion for using Bulls Bag and wish to share their style. I am sure Bulls Bag can show you whole for whole repeatability... but don't you think it's more Believable from an average Joe?
I have also watched these videos and it can be duly noted... as in the MustHave Outdoors references to shooting there are some defects in their application exactness! I think they are just trying to reveal a product that they recommend to their viewers. Thats part of the program.
I also noted the video with the retired disabled Veteran... and while he is using the shortest (10") Bulls Bag... he is ringing out some more than reasonable groups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=llvexInK0_8
Your QUOTE: "entertaining.....but does not give the product much credibility."
I will admit... I am a little confused by your comment. I watched the video and the Veteran shows you he is shooting in extremely winding conditions, by showing outside the shooters shed and than after getting on paper... he than shows a 3-shoot group (on a windy day) at less than 1/2 MOA...
What were you expecting... "does not give the product much credibility" I will enjoy your comment. I am sure!
Nomad47 said:
Bill, The subject matter as noted:
"I'm thinking of going with the Bull Bag or Ballistic Shooting Bag over the "Sled". Any opinions on one over the other?"
I thought the 'rambling' in regards to Bulls Bag in comparing the Sled, was quite exact 8) and to the point and the 'Post'. If there were better answers to the questions at hand... I must be on the wrong page
or can I expect a plead of the 5th Amendment. I here this is popular these days!... ;D lol- Status
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