Opinnons on Bull Bag or Ballistic Shooting Bag

[LHSmith]

To the OP's question......Between the two rests mentioned, I would choose the bulls bag......I would never use a Lead Sled.....it is just a poor concept for all the reasons noted......particularly the point of impact (POI) being no where near the same when one is shooting off-hand. That being said, sighting in with the bulls bag will also net a different POI from shooting off-hand, just not as much. The bulls bag website inadvertently admits this fact by it's claims that the bag minimizes muzzle jump (remember the bullet is still in the barrel at early stages of recoil), yet elsewhere on the site they claim that the bulls bag does not negatively affect your POI.
From the video's on the web site, it clearly shows the shooter steering the rifle with his upper body for windage adjustment, and lifting the buttstock out of the "cradle" for elevation.
Using the good old fashioned 2-bag (sand bags) system with a quality adjustable tri-pod which allows for minute directional changes, one can develop a form that greatly minimizes body contact which CAN cause variations in POI. I say "can" because an astute shooter who maintains consistent shooting form can greatly minimize POI changes caused by the rest platform.
The site is loaded with hype and more than generous customer target measurements. Apparently the Lead Sled is their biggest competitor.
I have no problem with this companies 2- bag designs.

 

[farmboy]

I have not had much luck with this type of bag in the past, even though I want them to work. My personal experience has repeatably shown me that sandbags front and rear give me superior results-consistent accuracy. At the start of the thread I was looking at the "bag" wondering if it could be useful to me. The "Billy Mays" infomercial approach taken in promoting this product has really turned me away from it. Even a dumb old farmboy can recognize snake oil. I find the promotion offensive enough that I doubt I would use it if given to me free.

 

[expiper]

Lost,,,you dont need a sandbag as big as rosie odonnoll to shoot with....you can get/make good ones out of empty shot bags or blue jean legs sewn together that willl allow you to shoot properly....and they are small and very portable and dont cost a lot $$...Roger

 

[TacAce]

WELL!... I am not sure what "Billy Mays" infomercial you are referring to... Could you please be so kind to reveal a good 'link' so we can all enjoy your comments.

I think should you be of perfect quality in shooting and obviously an Expert in these regards. I would go out of my way to make contact with Bulls Bag and because I am sure they would welcome your shooting challenge and expertise in these matters... would you be interested in shooting a comp against their Pro-Staff... using your shooting system? I would be more than interested in see your results. Oh... I would request they put you up against their 12-year old (Nigel Whitson of PA) so we can keep it fair.

If you are up for the test... I will publish nationwide in well, know publication our findings. Or if you prefer another event to prove your opinions and comments? I am open!

 

[TacAce]

I have not had much luck with this type of bag in the past, even though I want them to work. My personal experience has repeatably shown me that sandbags front and rear give me superior results-consistent accuracy. At the start of the thread I was looking at the "bag" wondering if it could be useful to me. The "Billy Mays" infomercial approach taken in promoting this product has really turned me away from it. Even a dumb old farmboy can recognize snake oil. I find the promotion offensive enough that I doubt I would use it if given to me free.

Sir... let me be clear here!

"I have not had much luck with this type of bag in the past,"

You either have or have not shot of a Bulls Bag?

If you are confused in this style... I will bring you up to speed and than maybe Not. If your use has been with a Cladwell-Tack Driver, Stoneypoint- Marksman, Dog-Gone-Good, Tuff Country or any others who have created an H-Design... than you have missed the boat. Those designs are NOT..."this type of bag". And do you know why all the others look and do the same as each other, but not as the Bulls Bag? Because of patent law and design. The others DO NOT GRIP THE FOREARM. Because they are not allowed under the rules of Intellectual Property.

The other designs put 50% of the weight above the CG. Oh.. whats CG... Center-Of-Gravity. That means, that when you place the gun in the bag with its added weight... the bag becomes top heavy. That's an eye opener. Also the Bulls Bag uses a 30/70 weight distribution, which means that 30% is above the CG and 70% below. Humm! Oh yea... That when you pull out and away form each other, the bottom lobes, the upper lobes move inwards and towards each other to create a vise-like grip. This 'hinge action' is only know to the Bulls Bag Design and might be called an X-Design

Oh.. I know you are now going to say you did use a Bulls Bag. I should have figured that out before helping the others who like their Bulls Bag understand why it works and is not collecting dust!

 

[TacAce]

FYI: Bulls Bag Design

 

[BoydAllen]

Geez, enough of the commercial.

 

[TacAce]

Should any shooter desire to step it up a notch... I say we move towards a 'Ballistic Fingerprint'

We can entertain the topic to include:

1) STRAIGHT TRACKING AND RETICLE CONFIRMATION
2) TRUE CLICK VALUES EVALUATION AND CALIBRATION
3) COLD-BORE ISSUES

and a diagnostic process to identify each rifle’s: idiosyncrasies.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Finally, someone who can out talk Boyd

 

[GSPV]

Blah, blah, blah.

Lots of hype. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[SierraCJ5]

This is one of then funniest threads I've seen in a long time. You have to laugh when a manufacturer spends time challenging and belittling potential customers. Maybe I went to the wrong school of customer relations but I can't image this tactic strengthening business. Incidentally, I actually purchased a Bulls bag X7 a few years ago when the NRA store was offering them at a discount. I've shot with it some but it never quite measured up to my expectations. Have I shot tiny groups with the X7? Yes. Have I shot tiny groups off a bi-pod? You bet. I prefer a bi-pod these days since I mainly shoot f class and feel establishing uniform technique is better.

Overall, I've never been impressed with the X7 design and if I'd purchased through the Bulls bag website I would have returned it for a refund.

One question. Are front sandbags legal in bench rest? If so and based on TacAce's claims, records shot off mechanical rests should fall to new records shot off front bags.

 

[TacAce]

This is one of then funniest threads I've seen in a long time. You have to laugh when a manufacturer spends time challenging and belittling potential customers. Maybe I went to the wrong school of customer relations but I can't image this tactic strengthening business. Incidentally, I actually purchased a Bulls bag X7 a few years ago when the NRA store was offering them at a discount. I've shot with it some but it never quite measured up to my expectations. Have I shot tiny groups with the X7? Yes. Have I shot tiny groups off a bi-pod? You bet. I prefer a bi-pod these days since I mainly shoot f class and feel establishing uniform technique is better.

Overall, I've never been impressed with the X7 design and if I'd purchased through the Bulls bag website I would have returned it for a refund.

One question. Are front sandbags legal in bench rest? If so and based on TacAce's claims, records shot off mechanical rests should fall to new records shot off front bags.

Well. I welcome your nice comments in regards to the X7, but a bit confused by you, because you shot 'tight groups' with it. I should educate you in regards to the manufactures Promise.

Let me keep the drama going for those who are laughing about some of the silly comments by the sidelines and those who know different. I propose that you send your X7 back to Bulls Bag for a FULL REFUND. You just provide the product... and what you paid for it in good condition and use my ID: TacAce ...and I will make sure you get every penny you spent on the X7 back.

The goal at Bulls Bag to-date is to make sure any unsatisfied customer is treated with total dignity and respect and spite of their short comings. I also am aware that after 22 years, that less than a dozen have ever been returned for a refund! So make us all happy and get you your money back so you than can post how they took care of you! I will just bet you that no other rest company would consider this.

I also can reveal that the product has a Lifetime Guarantee... including wear and tear. I think the only problem with metal rest is they might rust. :-\ lol

Here is the address: 460 Hilldale Dr. Needmore, PA 17238 Pretty simple Yea! Your money is waiting!

Now look how you learned something from this 'thread' ;D

 

[BoydAllen]

Normally, when one wishes to use a site to promote ones product to this extent, one is expected to do it in the form of paid advertising. I think that in the future that you may be better off taking that course. I cannot remember another instance where a manufacturer has taken the approach that you have in this thread, and frankly, I hope that it is some time before it happens again. I have a couple of friends who tend to favor the Dog-Gone-Good bags, one of which also has a Bulls Bag.

 

[TacAce]

Normally, when one wishes to use a site to promote ones product to this extent, one is expected to do it in the form of paid advertising. I think that in the future that you may be better off taking that course. I cannot remember another instance where a manufacturer has taken the approach that you have in this thread, and frankly, I hope that it is some time before it happens again. I have a couple of friends who tend to favor the Dog-Gone-Good bags, one of which also has a Bulls Bag.

I am not advertising anything or desire to create any sale. The topic is Bulls Bag vs. Lead Sled. I simply have stated the engineering between the models and have back them up by facts, examples and Real BB customer results.

If you find this to exact or the detail is bothersome... than you don't have to participate in this topic. I can also understand when consumers do not compare apples to apples. It seem to offend those who know less than my post... as in this current topic. The Dog-Gone-Good bag that you are referencing stands higher than the original BB with a 3.5 inch cradle. The DGD would be twice as high, so some would prefer the taller stance... But you are not comparing the comparable models. If so you would have to evaluate the DGD vs. the Pro-SERIES of BB to be fair. This is another example of not knowing the real facts.

I am taken back by those who think they have ALL the answers and can't learn anything moving forward. While most shooters are out there making more adjustments and testing more bench loads... I on the other hand am working with the elite shooters, behind the scenes and SP-Ops.. who's job is taking out the bad guys at extreme distances while under pressure.

I can also tell you while many are playing with bullet weight and powder to get SUB-Moa... I am getting the same results the best shooters are getting with factory loads. Why do you think that is? Because I have a good understanding of engineering, pressure-points, unwanted harmonic vibration, true-click value, redtical tracking and hold. Yep... I never at anytime claimed you could not reach my same results... My claim is that you can't do better than my results!

Don't you think that is fair or should you offering a event between shooters and systems to clear the air... ? I don't put down any other shooting rest and what you can get on target. I just reveal the diffs. I have used all of them and in most situations, I can get near perfect results with many of them. The questions is how much work does it take to get there!

Now do you think I am being fair? For the record... Most shooters are Not 10 feet tall and bullet proof....LOL I am really just a fellow shooter sharing my ignorance!

Some people can teach... Some can learn... and I do both.

 

[LHSmith]

While most shooters are out there making more adjustments and testing more bench loads... I on the other hand am working with the elite shooters, behind the scenes and SP-Ops.. taking out the bad guys at extreme distances while under pressure.

Oh, so your hawking to the Tacticool crowd....not too many on this site. On this site our ideal accuracy goal is all shots through the same hole, NOT M.O.T. (minute of torso). This explains the guy in the video sighting in on a man silhouette target. Here's a tip for you two....aim small- miss small. I shoot at 1/16" dots most weekends and those bags(besides being not legal for competition) would never cut it. You are digging a deeper hole for yourself as your claims are getting more outrageous.

 

[TacAce]

While most shooters are out there making more adjustments and testing more bench loads... I on the other hand am working with the elite shooters, behind the scenes and SP-Ops.. taking out the bad guys at extreme distances while under pressure.

Oh, so your hawking to the Tacticool crowd....not too many on this site. On this site our ideal accuracy goal is all shots through the same hole, NOT M.O.T. (minute of torso). This explains the guy in the video sighting in on a man silhouette target. Here's a tip for you two....aim small- miss small. I shoot at 1/16" dots most weekends and those bags(besides being not legal for competition) would never cut it. You are digging a deeper hole for yourself as your claims are getting more outrageous.

Don't miss understand the real meaning. The SP Ops crews don't practice for a turso my friend. That is the diff between DOD and Sniper Detachment. For correcting you its a head shot! Now about your 1/16" dots or groups and also the sil-target is not our video... or our target. I think you are referring to the disabled Vet with a 1/2" Moa video on YouTube.

I must ask you why do you think the BB is 'not legal' for comp? Surly you have a good reason and will give an answer. Maybe because it would not be fair for those who are not using BB.

I give you much praise in regards to your 1/16" groups or is it dots. A job well done. I would enjoy seeing a target and please include any important information, that can help others in duplicating your results. Do you happen to know what kind of groups your are ringing out? That's how we can all remain on the same page...

I am so very interested why you take such great effort to my comments, that have been directed to every responce, that you find it inline to degrade the topic and my experience? This is to be a place to learn and share. I am always open to adding to my knowledge. I have not been nasty to anyone... so stand-down! Please... My Friend

 

[TacAce]

FYI: EXAMPLE...This is how we measure our groups here

Quote:
"We walked down and measured the group........ .028 !!!

 

[TacAce]

While most shooters are out there making more adjustments and testing more bench loads... I on the other hand am working with the elite shooters, behind the scenes and SP-Ops.. taking out the bad guys at extreme distances while under pressure.

Oh, so your hawking to the Tacticool crowd....not too many on this site. On this site our ideal accuracy goal is all shots through the same hole, NOT M.O.T. (minute of torso). This explains the guy in the video sighting in on a man silhouette target. Here's a tip for you two....aim small- miss small. I shoot at 1/16" dots most weekends and those bags(besides being not legal for competition) would never cut it. You are digging a deeper hole for yourself as your claims are getting more outrageous.

Don't miss understand the real meaning. The SP Ops crews don't practice for a turso my friend. That is the diff between DOD and Sniper Detachment. For correcting you its a head shot! Now about your 1/16" dots or groups and also the sil-target is not our video... or our target. I think you are referring to the disabled Vet with a 1/2" Moa video on YouTube.

I must ask you why do you think the BB is 'not legal' for comp? Surly you have a good reason and will give an answer. Maybe because it would not be fair for those who are not using BB.

I give you much praise in regards to your 1/16" groups or is it dots. A job well done. I would enjoy seeing a target and please include any important information, that can help others in duplicating your results. Do you happen to know what kind of groups your are ringing out? That's how we can all remain on the same page...

I am so very interested why you take such great effort to my comments, that have been directed to every responce, that you find it inline to degrade the topic and my experience? This is to be a place to learn and share. I am always open to adding to my knowledge. I have not been nasty to anyone... so stand-down! Please... My Friend

One should ask... how much shooting have you done of the BB? If you could refer to rounds of ammo, that would help me to better understand your comments.

 

[LHSmith]

It's called Score shooting.....read all about it at international-benchrest.com and NBRSA.com....lots of pictures of targets shot in registered competition witnessed by all competitors and scored by experienced scorers . The rules of both organizations demand a 2 bag rest, and the front bag can not restrain recoil. I am done with this thread.

 

[GSPV]

TacAce,

At the time i write this, you have 16 posts on this forum. Every single post is in this thread. That speaks volumes.

Your assertion that this thread is Lead Sled vs Bull Bag with no deviation being pertinent is counter to the way things operate here. Having only 16 posts here, all in this thread, perhaps you wouldn't know.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that the BB sucks. They are offering their experience. Little known to you, some of those folks are very accomplished competitive shooters in several different formats.

Could you tell us straight up and in plain, concise, terms what your association with the BB company is? Your emotional attachment to the product runs counter to the norm here.