Once Fired Brass Problems

[Uncle Ed]

Are your cases coming out of your die scratched? If they are then dirt/grit and brass embedded in the die are scratching your cases.

You stated the die is perfectly clean, "BUT" a perfectly clean die will not scratch your cases.

If your cases are coming out of the chamber scratched then there is something in the chamber scratching the cases.

Below is a photo of a bushing that was still scratching the case necks after it was "cleaned". The bushing still has brass sticking to it and you have brass rubbing on brass and scratching the case neck. All it takes is for a piece of grit to become embedded in the die and it starts picking up brass and scratches the case.

 

[Martin52]

Have you always used Lapua brass or did you change. Lapua brass tends to have less case capacity than others. You may find its around 2 grains less than other makes..

Always used Lapua brass, in fact changed over to 100% palma cases 5 years ago.

 

[Martin52]

I am thinking the die does not match your chamber. Also dies cannot size all the way to the extractor groove. This is the solid web area, and cannot be swaged without an industrial press and tons of pressure. That bright ring on bolt, not knowing what firearm- looks like a bolt when modified to plug an ejector hole.

The die is custom made off three 3x fired cases (what is also relevant to the current issue is the fact I could neck size and fire new cases 3 times in order to send off to the die maker - whereas I could not re-chamber this new batch of cases).

The bolt (Barnard P) has not been modified, it does have an ejector. I can't explain the shiny circle.

 

[Martin52]

The load you used in the virgin brass - is this a load you always used before in virgin brass, or was that load developed over multiple firings? I second the previous suggestion to measure the volume of the cases (if you still have unfired ones) - the problem could simply be that you are putting a "safe" charge in virgin brass that has a smaller volume, and thus raises the pressure - which may then not cause any problems in the fire-formed brass on subsequent loads.

I have shot this load (45.2 gr H4895) often, I have also used 46.4gr Varget also in palma brass.

I have tested up to 45.6 gr H4895 with no pressure signs. 45.2 is giving me ~ 3040 fps.

OAL is 2.910 seated 0.050 off the lands.

 

[Martin52]

Did you get bolt click and hard to open after firing?

No, did not notice either.

 

[Martin52]

Make them contact each other when sizing, at top of stroke. Measure shoulder set back. Will it chamber?

Said to be a high pressure sign. Or oval chamber or bolt face not square to chamber.

If the die contacts the S/H the shoulder would be bumped back a few 'thou further than desired. It should certainly chamber ok but would be too short.

 

[Martin52]

Martin
Have you measured the unfired cases compared to the brass you used before , your not new to the game . Brass thickness as others mentioned in case volume , and lube. The only thing that came to my mind was when I just received the Redding S Type bushing die , I couldn't wait to try it , instead of giving it a good cleaning , taking it apart to see how things work , I just set it up in the press and had the first stuck case jammed so hard in the die it ripped the head off the body, sent it back to Redding to remove , the CS guy even laughed when I explained what happened. In your case the only change is the dress , even if it could be thicker it should size , even if the press was set up in place using your old brass and swithcing to new leaving everything in place . Would using more lube on new cases help. I've had cases that I could feel alittle more resistance when raising the ram , now after the stuck case , I lower the ram add alittle more lube and it sizes fine . Could it be something that simple . Would like to know for sure what the problem is. Sorry if my post seems lame but sizing should go pretty easy for a experience reloader.
Chris

The first time I noticed I had a problem was when I went to FLS the once fired new brass. The press downstroke was harder than usual and the upstroke was worse - explains the scratches on the lower part of the body. That's what caused me to try and rechamber a few of the fired empty rounds but the bolt would not close.

I am using Hornady One Shot on both the cases and the die and never have had a problem in the past. Could be the first time I guess.

 

[Martin52]

What rifle?

Scratch marks look like a rough chamber that I had with a Weatherby Vanguard with created difficult extraction and stiff chambering.

Surprised that you're able to bump the shoulder back with a gap between the shell holder and die. How are you measuring shoulder set back? Are you removing the primer of the fired case that you are basing your initial measurement on? Something doesn't seem right here.

How far are the bullets off the lands?

Barnard P with 30 inch Krieger barrel.

The cause of the scratching indicates the FLS die as the cases were not scratched coming out of the chamber.

I generally bump the shoulders only 0.001/2 and to date having a few thou gap does not seem to have affected anything. Measuring setback with a barrel stub on my calipers, with the fired primers removed before FLS.

This particular batch of 155.5 FB's are ~ 0.050 off the lands.

 

[Martin52]

Scratches are caused by high points not just rubbing. All of my 6mm Norma Lapua cases size with hardly any effort. I still tell guys that I think a petroleum type lube is the best but no-one believes me. Are the necks chamfered out of the box when you size them. If they are not chamfered tiny nibs of brass will break off the edge of the neck and get in the die. Take the die apart and examine the entire interior with a flash light for brass color. Check the die for machining marks that were not polished out. For starters I would inspect the dies carefully. Lube case well with pet oil and see if it goes away. If it doesn't go away I would complain to the people that made your die. Sounds like your chamber is large compared to the die. I have an off the shelve Whidden die. Don't do competitive shooting. One of the scratches on your case is very deep. It can only be caused by a particle in your die. Last several years I have been using a petroleum based hydraulic fluid sold at auto zone to lube cases. $8 a qt. will last a life time. I had brass scratches on some of my cases similar to yours. It was caused by the necks not being chamfered enough. Removed the brass as much as I could with Sweet's bore cleaner. It has a lot of ammonia in it. Then a light polish with a split wooden dowel wth 800 grit sand paper. You don't have to remove 100% of the brass color just most of it. Sweets might get rid of most of it. I didn't soak for any length of time, I just rubbed it on. Even if the die looks clean it wouldn't hurt to polish lightly with some 800-1200 grit sandpaper. The amount of metal removed is microscopic and of no consequence. Do your cases fall on dirt or concret when ejected? Sounds like the scratches are always at the same location on the brass. What does this indicate?

Does that one deep scratch appear on every case? Some else mentioned a rough chamber? Borrow some elses die and try it.

Necks chamfered - Yes.
Re scratches, you just gave me a thought - the first case may have had grit stuck to the outside and I did not notice this, I do know the die itself was clean at the start. I did re-clean the die during the process of trying to rezise these cases and may have shifted any grit in the process.
These cases fall on grass.

 

[Martin52]

Re-read your info. So you have used these dies before with the same chamber and Lapua brass? How are you determining shoulder bump?

Yes, used this die before.

Determining shoulder bump using the Wheeler method, with barrel stub on caliper. New cases ~1.629, fired up to ~1.633, resized to 1.6315.

 

[LHSmith]

The die is custom made off three 3x fired cases (what is also relevant to the current issue is the fact I could neck size and fire new cases 3 times in order to send off to the die maker - whereas I could not re-chamber this new batch of cases).

The bolt (Barnard P) has not been modified, it does have an ejector. I can't explain the shiny circle.

When I go with a custom die (Whidden) I send in 1x Fired cases -unsized. Not sure what you sent was the proper brass prep they want.

 

[Martin52]

That load doesn't seem hot. What is the neck on your chamber? Do you need to turn necks for this setup?

Agree, I have tested up to 45.6 gr H4895.
Chamber neck is 0.340, necks are turned, loaded rounds ~ 0.336.

 

[Martin52]

It didn't look like that before sizing, but it did after?
I would say the id finish of the die?

Yes, could be grit on the case, as discussed above.

 

[Martin52]

45.2 gr of H4895 behind your Berger 155.5's is not really a "moderate" load; it's a rather hot load. I've recently fired 45.0 gr. of H4895 to push my 168 smk's in my RPR and that was definitely a hot load for me, which performed quite well without any pressure indications other than a little bit of hard bolt lift. And when I then look at my QuickLoad app to help see what's going on, it's telling me I'm looking at pressure well over the SAMMI max of 62,000 psi and your load looks pretty close the same (like ~65,000 psi).

As mentioned above, I have tested up to 45.6 gr H4895 with no pressure signs. Getting 3040 fps from 45.2 gr, 30 inch barrel COAL 2.91.

 

[Martin52]

Why would a hot load make a deep scratch? Is it on everycase?

Initially thought this might have been a load problem (excessive pressure) even though the only change to my standard reloading process was using new brass. In that possible scenario, the base of the case may have expanded too much and was sticking in the die, at least that was the thought.

 

[LHSmith]

If you neck-sized the brass 3x before sending it in it probably was too big in the back end for optimum FL sizing.

 

[Martin52]

Are your cases coming out of your die scratched? If they are then dirt/grit and brass embedded in the die are scratching your cases.

You stated the die is perfectly clean, "BUT" a perfectly clean die will not scratch your cases.

If your cases are coming out of the chamber scratched then there is something in the chamber scratching the cases.

Yes, coming out of the die scratched, not the chamber.
As mentioned above, it's possible that grit was on the first case to be resized and went unnoticed. But, there are a few scratches so that indicates enough grit to be ordinarily noticeable ?
Thanks for the pic.

 

[Martin52]

If you neck-sized the brass 3x before sending it in it probably was too big in the back end for optimum FL sizing.

Could be, but that's what the die maker requested.

 

[Sandstorm]

Had the same thing happen with the scratches and it was brass stuck to the inside of my die.
seems to happen alot with my 308 Norma brass and not with any of my other calibers.
Im constantly re-cleaning and polishing my 308 die as its got a habit of brass sticking to the sides...bad.
Sweets soak over night and 600 to 800 grit does the job for a short while and then..its back to scratches again...

 

[LHSmith]

Your die is oversize for your chamber, This is why in your pic of the case, the rub marks go almost to the extractor groove. A proper FL die should should not size quite that far down.

Could be, but that's what the die maker requested.

Are you sure you didn't misunderstand. Whidden wants 3 one time fired cases that were not resized?