Old School 222 Rem. BR Build, Load Development

[wildcatter]

The smaller case 224's seems like seating depth can help tune out horizontal that's not condition related. My bigger case 224s (22BR, etc) don't show that.

Not sure if it's a real thing or not....

I have to say this the first cartridge I ever had better luck jumping! I'm with you on the 22BR it was pretty much the same as my 6BR or my 6ppc as was my 250's
I wonder if the small Dia. Longer powder columb or long taper shoulder has something to do with it. This is the only cartridge I shoot with this much taper case or shoulder.

 

[wildcatter]

Virtually all my experiences with .224 cal ( irregardless of cartridge) showed they performed better with jump.

This is the first cartridge I have ever had better accuracy with jumping. 22-250s 22BRs never showed me anything aff the lands.

I have been told jumping the 6x47L and 6BR with the heavy bullets is the way to go. I have killer loads for both of mine and like everything else I load, they give me my best results for accuracy .003 to .012 depending on the cartridge and the load.

Good thing is with this deushe I get some cheap speed I actually need,,,,

 

[wildcatter]

Cartridges I speak of have too much recoil?

All the various forms of 222 improved, 223 improved, and if you’re willing to deal with the brass, 222mag and its improved variants. Use any of them and you no longer have one load that gets you to 3400fps, you have fifty. And you can exceed 3400fps. And you can reach 3400fps with 55’s. I’ve done 3300 with a 64gr from a 223AI. Neck any of them up to 6mm if you want.

If you can get that deuce to shoot well at 3400, and have room to tune on any given day, then more power to you, but if you need 3400fps, there are better ways to do it, and they did it in all of those ways in benchrest competition for decades. Not many people shot a plain deuce and your need for velocity is exactly the reason.

Ya I know, but that's why I sold my6ppc with krieger barrels batt and Scarburough stock. Way to easy, and if you win your expected to.

This is about having fun, and doing what it takes to make it as competitive as it can be! If it's about winning, don't be mistaken, but there is only one better choice, that 6mm ppc!

I also know most of the cartridges you mention are capable on some days. But most have proven to be more finicky from day to day. Fred Sinclair would have had a lot more hair in his old age if he would have stuck with the 222. Way less picky when conditions change.

 

[ImBIllT]

Ya I know, but that's why I sold my6ppc with krieger barrels batt and Scarburough stock. Way to easy, and if you win your expected to.

This is about having fun, and doing what it takes to make it as competitive as it can be! If it's about winning, don't be mistaken, but there is only one better choice, that 6mm ppc!

I also know most of the cartridges you mention are capable on some days. But most have proven to be more finicky from day to day. Fred Sinclair would have had a lot more hair in his old age if he would have stuck with the 222. Way less picky when conditions change.

I just think you should pick the most accurate load and stick with it instead of chasing velocity is all. There are many 222 variants, all designed to solve the velocity problem. I wish you the best of luck and hope you do great with that rifle, as I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for a deuce. It’s my opinion, and nothing more than an opinion, that if you want to shoot a plain deuce you’re better off just accepting the velocity it gives you and enjoying your deuce. If it shoots bugholes at 3400, great!

I always wanted a 45* improved deuce in a bench gun. Or maybe a 45* improved deuce mag with the shoulder pushed back enough to have 222Rem neck length. I think most of the fits they got from the various modifications were based on brass quality. 222Mag brass was always awful. I feel like some Norma 204 Ruger might fix that problem. I may never know.

 

[wildcatter]

I just think you should pick the most accurate load and stick with it instead of chasing velocity is all. There are many 222 variants, all designed to solve the velocity problem. I wish you the best of luck and hope you do great with that rifle, as I’ve always had a soft spot in my heart for a deuce. It’s my opinion, and nothing more than an opinion, that if you want to shoot a plain deuce you’re better off just accepting the velocity it gives you and enjoying your deuce. If it shoots bugholes at 3400, great!

I always wanted a 45* improved deuce in a bench gun. Or maybe a 45* improved deuce mag with the shoulder pushed back enough to have 222Rem neck length. I think most of the fits they got from the various modifications were based on brass quality. 222Mag brass was always awful. I feel like some Norma 204 Ruger might fix that problem. I may never know.

That is exactly what I'm doing, but my 4 days in testing, working up .2 grains at a time is how I work. Most take a 222 for what the manuals give you, 48,000 cup and trust me, if that's safe in a Savage 340, or a 24v the Panda is nowhere near its potential, or any other modern bolt for that matter.

But your right, just take what it gives me is the plan. For years 29.0 grains of N133 was my go to load, till I took the initiative to see where top end took me. 30.2 on most days was better, and 30.4 in some very muggy heat was even better. Bench Rest is a very critical game, and requires a lot of annal work, there is no one perfect load in every gun or on every day.

 

[ImBIllT]

That is exactly what I'm doing, but my 4 days in testing, working up .2 grains at a time is how I work. Most take a 222 for what the manuals give you, 48,000 cup and trust me, if that's safe in a Savage 340, or a 24v the Panda is nowhere near its potential, or any other modern bolt for that matter.

But you’re right, just take what it gives me is the plan. For years 29.0 grains of N133 was my go to load, till I took the initiative to see where top end took me. 30.2 on most days was better, and 30.4 in some very muggy heat was even better. Bench Rest is a very critical game, and requires a lot of annal work, there is no one perfect load in every gun or on every day.

I’ve never known a benchrest shooter that did anything close to what a manual said. Can’t say I do either.

 

[wildcatter]

In case some didn't see my post last fall. This was kinda come about by a WTF do I do with this?

To obtain a Ron Pence hand cut rifled barrel, the owner only wanted to sell it as a whole rifle. Since I had no use for a 17 Javelina in a Panda with a benchrest stock. The best thing I could think to do was build this old School BR gun in a LV in honor of one of my mentors Fred Sinclair.

And cut the Javelina chamber out of the Pence Barrel, to make a more satisfying varmint rig in 17 Mach IV. So far I'm happy with my decision on both.

I think I forgot to mention, this is a Shilen SM W/rachet rifeling. Another first for me, and has me wondering if this 4 groove rifeling configuration is any way responsible for some of the velocity im seeing?

 

[wildcatter]

Well more from Monday before I took a break and git the Harley out, then spent 3 days at the lake. Clearing my head,,,, if you know what I mean?

Well it was needed! Monday, the heavier H322 load gave me those ES numbers I was look'n for! 3349 3348 3350 3351 and 3350= ES3.3 fps AV 3349 BUT that 1 shot each time killed a great group.


Well after some wilderness therapy and getting my head right,,, (out of my hind end) I thought about the bedding? I had no idea who did it, but thinking about it, I never really checked it. Plus noticing the amount the group changed poi with .4 grain difference in the two groups.

Well it wasn't the instant from snug to tight, it wasn't bad but not definite. Sure enough I could not get a sheet of printer paper under the last 1.5" of barrel at the action. So a little Dremel work, and hopefully now that I can get a business card under everything, I'll have em all in one whole.

Bad thing is first match is tomorrow? Probably needs sighting in again since this is a score match. But how will it shoot? Talk about winging the first match. But another time after all these years taking anything for granted wastes a lot of time, and something I knew better but went unchecked. Really just a barrel change, hope this load still works, it's what I'm taking!

 

[ImBIllT]

Best wishes, and I hope you do well.

If you do any future load development, I would only recommend that you let the paper do the talking. At 100-200yds, I’ve never seen ES/SD be important. That’s not to say that they hurt anything, but you can shoot in the teens with loads that have horrible ES/SD. Horrible may be too strong.

 

[wildcatter]

Well after missing the bedding lug under the barrel, 20 to 30 mph winds and gusts to 40+ mph with rain made for a less than boring first match for the new rifle.

After some experimenting at 100 yards, I pretty much had most thing figured out with the new gun. One thing was it needs 4 or 5 shots to settle down.

My first target zero was close, so a couple clicks and 10x with the second shot,I moved to the record bulls, first one a 10 close to an x. Then the second shot,,, an 8??? Figuring it was me fired the third record bull and a 9 same direction the 8 printed in.

Well 3 shots in and this blown, with match consisting of 2 100 yard score targets, and 2 200 yard. Cleand the last 2 bulls after a few clicks left and up. Then to the second relay. Two x on the sighter and to the record bulls, next three 10's and then just missing the line on the 4th bull and final shot another 10 with 3x's.

Now I had it figured, cleaned and got ready for 200 yards, wich were all 10's and 3 or 4 x's, don't really remember, as with just a t shirt, soaking wet from the rain pounding me the last 3 relays, and wind gusting high enough to blow gun cases around, and Temps dropped from 68 at the start of the match. To 52 degrees now at 2pm I was ready to head.

All in all not wasted day. To clean 200 in this wind, using an unverified load. In conditions to humble everyone, I headed home confident that this gun is going to work. Not mention, ready for some dry clothes, heat, and something to eat.

Still waiting for match results to post to see just where I finished. Scratching the 100 yard, and seeing where I finished at the 200 yard mark.

 

[AlNyhus]

Congrats on your first outing.

On a Panda bolt in where the back of the tang is used as the recoil lug, make sure there's clearance on the sides and that the corners are relieved so the tang isn't wedging into the stock. The back of the tang should contact the stock as the lug...no other surface. When you slide the action back, the back of the tang should 'clunk' hard against the rear flat edge. Also, make sure you have plenty of clearance around the action screws.

Hope this makes sense. -Al

 

[wildcatter]

Congrats on your first outing.

On a Panda bolt in where the back of the tang is used as the recoil lug, make sure there's clearance on the sides and that the corners are relieved so the tang isn't wedging into the stock. I want the flat back of the tang contacting the stock...no other surface. When you slide the action back, the back of the tang should 'clunk' hard against the rear flat edge. Also, make sure you have plenty of clearance around the action screws.

Hope this makes sense. -Al

The issue was the barrel dia. The original bedding used a 1.5" shelf to suport the barrel at the chamber. I just brain farted it! I took over an 1/8th inch of material out just to get a thin tissue under it. Three times taking more material each time to get notebook paper clearance. Now I can slide a group target under it and seemed to fix it, at least as soon as the screws come under tension they torque down instantly! Some better conditions and I'll run that final seating depth test to confirm. But I'm betting no more one outs.

Pillars and the rest if the bedding of the action is pretty good. I don't think I ever checked the action screws when Fred put it in the stock? This would be like not checking my screws on my rings.

I know when the action screws start to tighten up, they better instantly tighten. When I lossened them and tightened them, that taking 3/4 of a turn from snug to tight was a sure indication, something is giving, NOT GOOD.

Just another oversight that seems to be more common these days, older wiser takin another siesta on me!

Add to that the most miserable match conditions in several years. But still glad I'm still doing it while 3 other guys packed up taking a dnf! Good thing from all this, rifle and match condition are only going to get better!

 

[AlNyhus]

The issue was the barrel dia.

I read that. If you had to crank the screws down 3/4 of a turn to get them tight, make sure the bedding didn't get tweaked above the pillars. The pillars will try to drive upward when you tighten them due to the clearance between the bedding and the action cause by the barrel being 'up' ahead of the action due to the pad of bedding there.

Pillars and the rest if the bedding of the action is pretty good. I don't think I ever checked the action screws when Fred put it in the stock?

Easy to check with a dial indicator. The vast majority of actions that use the back end of the tang as a recoil lug have room for improvement. Action screw clearance is another area.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[wildcatter]

Yep all is good, no tang on a Panda, just big wide bedding surface. Maybe those f class actions, never had one of them. Bit several Panda BR actions currently a RBLPRE on my 6x47L and and this RBLP 222. All big flat no tangs.

I read that. If you had to crank the screws down 3/4 of a turn to get them tight, make sure the bedding didn't get tweaked above the pillars. The pillars will try to drive upward when you tighten them due to the clearance between the bedding and the action cause by the barrel being 'up' ahead of the action due to the pad of bedding there.

Easy to check with a dial indicator. The vast majority of actions that use the back end of the tang as a recoil lug have room for improvement. Action screw clearance is another area.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[AlNyhus]

Yep all is good, no tang on a Panda, just big wide bedding surface. Maybe those f class actions, never had one of them. Bit several Panda BR actions currently a RBLPRE on my 6x47L and and this RBLP 222. All big flat no tangs.

This is what I'm referring to re: the tang area.

 

[wildcatter]

Ah I thought you were talking of a built in recoil lug some actions have.

 

[sw282]

30+ yrs shooting prairie dogs after seeing my first before Desert Storm @Ft Hood Tx 1990. My first trip l took a Win Model 70 sporter in 222Rem along with Fiocchi 50gr sp ammo. Fast forward to 2023. My Cooper 21 Varmint in 222Rem will be going to New Mexico for PDS. Load is 40gr Berger jhp, R-P brass, IMR 4198 pdr

 

[wildcatter]

After just 3 weeks with the 222 and using the 6ppc for the past 35 years I can see why the love.

30+ yrs shooting prairie dogs after seeing my first before Desert Storm @Ft Hood Tx 1990. My first trip l took a Win Model 70 sporter in 222Rem along with Fiocchi 50gr sp ammo. Fast forward to 2023. My Cooper 21 Varmint in 222Rem will be going to New Mexico for PDS. Load is 40gr Berger jhp, R-P brass, IMR 4198 pdr

I think it is maybe less picky than the ppc as hard as that is to believe. And quite possibly just as accurate when loaded to modern pressures! Time will tell, but for sure the fact it is half a decade old, and given up on in competition decades ago, before the powders, bullets, primers, and most of all brass we have today, has me believing the 222 will perform better today than ever before.

I am now in possession of a brand new 1-14 Krieger blank in LV contour made in 2011. Barrel 2 for the Panda is about to become reality!

 

[1911nut]

This was shot with a 222 in 1973.

 

[wildcatter]

This was shot with a 222 in 1973.

View attachment 1433165

Yep stood for decades. Most of the components Mac used to shoot that group were experimental.

You can be sure compared to the components we have today his would be considered junk today, especially the brass.

I doubt I ever shoot a group like that, but in most cases small group of the Mach don't go along with winning. Winning requires consistency. Consistency depends on components that are consistent. Most match winners are those that don't shoot any big groups, and seldom does the winner of the agg win small group of the match. Not always, but most times the just shoot consistent small groups every relay

This is why I think the components today can yield the consistent results, for shooters that can read conditions well.

I know from the load development I have done already, if I was not using Lapua brass I would not be able to get the speed I'm getting. When I used the 6ppc my velocities were right at, to a tad over 3400 fps. No other brass will take loading to these pressures without fatiguing the cases, and loosening primer pockets.

By getting to that upper accuracy node over 3350 with the 52 grain bullets will get it up there where it can compete with the 6ppc shooters. But one still needs to read the conditions as well as they do.

In my opinion, when the ppc was born, the brass available was what gave it the advantage. When the 222 was abandoned all the brass available was to soft to compete. Lapua changed all that, so far this brass is holding strong. I am still tuning rifle and loads.

I don't expect to see top results for a few months. This is a cartridge I have never used before, I still have a lot to learn or prove. I also have a completely new gun, different action, different stock, and learning how it needs cradled, benched, and shot, everything is part of consistency that I will need to get in a rhythm with to be successful.

Make no mistake I would love to shoot that group, but more important to me is, I just wanna be able to shoot .1s consistently, and I'm getting close, but I still have work to do, and fun doing it!