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Old School 222 Rem. BR Build, Load Development

wildcatter

Silver $$ Contributor
I'll start by saying, I sure wish I would have owned a rifle in this Caliber 50 years ago! It is proving to be a joy to work with, as well as shoot!
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Day one, I will start with as I have spent the last two weeks picking days suitable for testing. This first thread is day one, just getting an idea where my parameter's are, and starting to form my prepped brass for the .246" NK minimum spec chamber, and finished barrel at 21.5" for a total weight of 10lbs 20z as shown, leaving room to make a 10.5lbs. LV weight if I use the 30mm NF 42x44mm BR Scope.

I chose H322 for my initial powder, and Rem. 7.5 Primers. Seating depth will begin @ 2.793" using my Sinclair comparator. I chose the 52.0 grain Bibbs Match Bullets, and Lapua 222 Remington Match Brass,,,,, thanks to a member here for finding it for me!! neck turned to get me a .2445" loaded neck dia.

So here are my results firing the new prepped cases to get me some cases for the load development. I must say I was imeadiatly impressed for the first time out after sighting thru the bore to get the scope close, I took 3 shots do dial in, with 4 and 5 cutting the same hole. This kind of grouping was to continue with 5 different charges. I got lucky finding the low node and shooting all around it this first time out, as 23.1 or 23.2 grains proving to match worthy, but a bit slow to compete with the bigger 6mm PPC's that dominate BR today.

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The target on the right was the following day to confirm and acquire more cases for the test I was about to begin. I had tried some N133 that day and bailed in favor of my first choice in this triple deuce! I shot these same loads again a time or two, and every time that 23.2 or 23.1 grain load would turn in under 1/4" groups, even in the rain and light switchy winds.

I then spent a few days and decided to put together the loads for a seating depth test. I was a bit surprised how touchy this cartridge was coming off the lands. But have been told by many who never jump bullets, the 222 is one cartridge that likes it. So being at .003" off the lands for beginning, I started .008" off with my first change, as my Wilson Micrometer die was zero'd at the .003" off with the Micrometer top zero'd there, and just tried .005" and .010" in on the micrometer top thinking I was probably going the wrong way. To my surprise I was very happy with the choice, and thanks Randy Robinette for the suggestion!

20230408_125532.jpg

The left target started by the two bottom group .013" left and .008" right off the lands. I couldn't believe the difference, so back 7 miles to the house, and loaded five more of each. Back to the range and the first group was the center bull on the left target, and the right target was again the 5 loaded .008" off!

I was happy with the groups it continued to give every time at 23.1 or 23.2 grains of H322, and after fireforming, I had switched to federal 205M primers. But I didn't like the ES it was giving with this load, and new I was not high with my pressure in this gun. Brass was not growing, heads were good and primer pockets tight,,, typical Lapua Brass in my opinion. I'll post more later, but thinking the pressure being anemic was the cause for the H322 giving me high Extreme Spread readings was telling me, we need to go hotter! Smokeless powder likes pressure to burn consistent has been my experience, and with the 6PPC I never got ideal results loading down.

We have to look at the books and start sparingly as they take in account for older actions when this cartridge was introduced, such as the Savage 340, and over and unders shotgun rifle combos, as well as the many custom Martini's and others. But I find 45,000 to 48,000 cup very light for any modern arm with modern quality brass. So my next time out I would expand on that idea @ the new .008" off the lands seating depth!

So when I had run my seating depth test I had taken my loads in .3 grain increments up to 24.5 grains of H322 with the 52 grain bullets, and as expected, after opening up beyond 23.2, at 24.5 it started to cut one hole again in the high .2s. I did decide to go out again and see what would happen taking this load to 25.0 grains which is getting into the neck without a drop tube. I usually don't go a full .5 grains so boldly at a time, but I was far from any pressure signs with my brass at 24.5 and new I had more room to go in this gun. I will say I only took 3 shells loaded with this load, and three with my control load of 23.2.
20230408_125622.jpg
23.2 crop.jpg

The bottom target shows it needed more powder, with ES's in the mid 20's and starting to group without flyers. The 25.0 grain load on top proved my suspicion with no were for the worst on the brass, and primer pockets staying tight. But most of all for the first time with H322 ES's in the low to mid teens and mid .1's for accuracy. Only 3 shots and out of day light but I did shoot the 23.2 control load with it at the same time, and again low .2's, and higher ES's, again showing promise, and a light at the end of the tunnel,,,,,I hope.
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Opening match of the year is Next Sunday the 16th, I will test this at 24.8 25.0 25.2, and 25.5 as long as high pressures stay ay bay. I can compete the first match at 100 for score with the anemic load against the better suited load they will be using the 6ppc's. but I think this 25ish grain load is going to be where this guns happiest, and at over 3340 fps, where I feel comfortable for on out 200 yards. This first match will be 2 targets for score at 100, and 2 at 200 again for score, and X's will be needed with clean 10's to have a shot unless conditions are terrible.

I will post my results with a little finer tunning and hope the 25.0 is where I am match day???
 
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Wildcatter -

Howdy !

I need to read your post closer , when time allows. Right now, we're packing for our next trip back to IN this upcoming Monday.

Wondered if you intend to shoot in the " Dust off your Deuce " postal match; seen here in the posts ? Again, perhaps I should read your post thoroughly; before I asked ?

Great work you've done there, both on the rifle, and your range work !

Now.... if only you could be awarded 500 Fifer .224" cal bullets for winning a match !!


With regards,
357Mag
 
While it doesn’t have the same reputation in the deuce, and won’t produce the same velocity, IMR-4895 loaded to the top of the case mouth has always been an extremely forgiving starting point for me.

This post really makes me want to put together a 222 bench gun.
 
While it doesn’t have the same reputation in the deuce, and won’t produce the same velocity, IMR-4895 loaded to the top of the case mouth has always been an extremely forgiving starting point for me.

This post really makes me want to put together a 222 bench gun.
Good luck finding 4895, but in all honesty I had pretty good results with 8208 and 24.5 grains, but not better than the H322 and not much better velocity. Even if it shot as good, the velocity with those slower powders, and this short barrel I wouldn't me match competitive.

My thoughts are I need that 3350 fps and will try and see if it will provide 3400 and hold groups in the ones! The main thing is not allow anything over low .2's! I learned years ago, and just had this conversation with Randy Robinette, small group of the match is nice, but the fact is, seldom does the guy shooting small group of the match win!!! the key is consistency and avoid the big group.

That 23.1 and 23.2 groups are good enough to win if you can agg low .2s in some matches, and it takes a mid to low .1 now and then to assure them agg's. But in match conditions, the wind is never in your favor, and I find it hard to imagine anything under 2200 fps in 22 cal, being able to compete when most are getting that good of accuracy with their toon and running 3400 fps or better with a better suited for conditions 68 grain 6mm bullet.

That was my reference to maybe being ok at 100, but at 200, that's a long way to give up 400+ fps, and think you can out read the conditions to compete.

Now a varmint rig,, hell anything I shot in this gun would do, and even that 24.5 grain load of 8208,,, before I tuned my seating depth would be good enough, but I need to hit em in the eye to kill em. But at 200 on a score or group match, I do. I'm sure that flyer would be gone, and think the group would be better than the single hole, especially in calm dry conditions. Just no speed.
20230408_161032.jpg


If that 25.0 322 load holds I'm in, and if it will hold with another 3 to 5 tenths of powder,,,, I'll be on top of the world! Time will tell, but one thing is for sure,,,,, I'm having fun!
 
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Wildcatter -

Howdy !

I need to read your post closer , when time allows. Right now, we're packing for our next trip back to IN this upcoming Monday.

Wondered if you intend to shoot in the " Dust off your Deuce " postal match; seen here in the posts ? Again, perhaps I should read your post thoroughly; before I asked ?

Great work you've done there, both on the rifle, and your range work !

Now.... if only you could be awarded 500 Fifer .224" cal bullets for winning a match !!


With regards,
357Mag
Ya I said I would play, as long as they aint to hard on my old azz, be careful on the road, and have a safe trip!
 
Good luck finding 4895, but in all honesty I had pretty good results with 8208 and 24.5 grains, but not better than the H322 and not much better velocity. Even if it shot as good, the velocity with those slower powders, and this short barrel I wouldn't me match competitive.

My thoughts are I need that 3350 fps and will try and see if it will provide 3400 and hold groups in the ones! The main thing is not allow anything over low .2's! I learned years ago, and just had this conversation with Randy Robinette, small group of the match is nice, but the fact is, seldom does the guy shooting small group of the match win!!! the key is consistency and avoid the big group.

That 23.1 and 23.2 groups are good enough to win if you can agg low .2s in some matches, and it takes a mid to low .1 now and then to assure them agg's. But in match conditions, the wind is never in your favor, and I find it hard to imagine anything under 2200 fps in 22 cal, being able to compete when most are getting that good of accuracy with their toon and running 3400 fps or better with a better suited for conditions 68 grain 6mm bullet.

That was my reference to maybe being ok at 100, but at 200, that's a long way to give up 400+ fps, and think you can out read the conditions to compete.

Now a varmint rig,, hell anything I shot in this gun would do, and even that 24.5 grain load of 8208,,, before I tuned my seating depth would be good enough, but I need to hit em in the eye to kill em. But at 200 on a score or group match, I do. I'm sure that flyer would be gone, and think the group would be better than the single hole, especially in calm dry conditions. Just no speed.
View attachment 1429771


If that 25.0 322 load holds I'm in, and if it will hold with another 3 to 5 tenths of powder,,,, I'll be on top of the world! Time will tell, but one thing is for sure,,,,, I'm having fun!
I have all I the IMR- 4895 I need anytime soon, and didn’t realize it had become hard to find.

If you think you need that kind of velocity, then I don’t think you should be looking for it in a 222Rem. They made 100 different variants with increased case capacity to solve the velocity problem.

On a calm day a deuce will compete with anything. If you need something more to buck the wind, then you need something more.

Just the opinion of a guy who loves the 222, but never shot one in a match.
 
In my opinion, it is one the greatest cartridges ever designed. My first varmint hunting mentor hunted eastern ground hogs extensively with it quite successfully.

For many of my early years I was a single centerfire rifle owner and hunter, the 243 Win, Model 70, due to financial constraints. When I got my first professional job after severing in the Army, I eventually couldn't resist following in the footsteps of my mentor even though the old Model 70 did it all.

So, I got a 222 Rem with a sporter weight, Remington Model 700, 24" barrel. With 4198, 50 grain Sierra bullets, and Remington 7 1/2 primers 1/2 moa was the norm. The only modification I made was adjusting the trigger pull to 2 1/2 lbs.

After about 5,000+ rounds or so, it opened up to about 3/4 moa, so I re-barreled to 223 Rem with a heavy Douglas Match barrel only because it was easier to get brass for a 223 and by that I time I had a few other 223 Rems.

Out to 250 yards varmint hunting, it has no peer which covers a lot of varmint hunting opportunities in the two areas where I have hunted.
 
I have all I the IMR- 4895 I need anytime soon, and didn’t realize it had become hard to find.

If you think you need that kind of velocity, then I don’t think you should be looking for it in a 222Rem. They made 100 different variants with increased case capacity to solve the velocity problem.

On a calm day a deuce will compete with anything. If you need something more to buck the wind, then you need something more.

Just the opinion of a guy who loves the 222, but never shot one in a match.
No doubt on a calm day, but in nearly 40 years competing in BR competition, I can count on one hand the days it was calm. Every competition has trade offs, the cartridges you speak of have to much recoil to compete at short range BR, or lack the ability to produce the extreme accuracy required to be competetive.

I can't begin to count the days the wind was coming from 4 different directions at the same time and constantly changing. I have many cartridges faster, problem is nothing is as accurate at short range (inside 300 yards) as the 6mm ppc. But the 222 is proving to be nearly it's equal. i need to have a rifle and load that will shoot in the 3400 fps range, and deliver the accuracy in the low to mid 1's consistently,,,,,, and am very close, just may be there with that 25.0 grain load? The 23.1 grain load is accurate enough, but it aint going to compete in the condition we shoot are matches in at 3100 fps.


I have decided to take this challenge and be the odd man out. Trust me every BR shooter pushes the 6ppc to its limits, knowing there are faster cartridges, and understanding they can't deliver the accuracy needed to compete. Those cartridges are great for varmints, but won't even see the top 20 list on most serious BR matches.
 
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In my opinion, it is one the greatest cartridges ever designed. My first varmint hunting mentor hunted eastern ground hogs extensively with it quite successfully.

For many of my early years I was a single centerfire rifle owner and hunter, the 243 Win, Model 70, due to financial constraints. When I got my first professional job after severing in the Army, I eventually couldn't resist following in the footsteps of my mentor even though the old Model 70 did it all.

So, I got a 222 Rem with a sporter weight, Remington Model 700, 24" barrel. With 4198, 50 grain Sierra bullets, and Remington 7 1/2 primers 1/2 moa was the norm. The only modification I made was adjusting the trigger pull to 2 1/2 lbs.

After about 5,000+ rounds or so, it opened up to about 3/4 moa, so I re-barreled to 223 Rem with a heavy Douglas Match barrel only because it was easier to get brass for a 223 and by that I time I had a few other 223 Rems.

Out to 250 yards varmint hunting, it has no peer which covers a lot of varmint hunting opportunities in the two areas where I have hunted.
No doubt I have already got enough accuracy and at 3350 fps one hell of a Varmint load. But BR is so much more demanding.
 
No doubt on a calm day, but in nearly 40 years competing in BR competition, I can count on one hand the days it was calm. Every competition has trade offs, the cartridges you speak of have to much recoil to compete at short range BR, or lack the ability to produce the extreme accuracy required to be competetive.

I can't begin to count the days the wind was coming from 4 different directions at the same time and constantly changing. I have many cartridges faster, problem is nothing is as accurate at short range (inside 300 yards) as the 6mm ppc. But the 222 is proving to be nearly it's equal. i need to have a rifle and load that will shoot in the 3400 fps range, and deliver the accuracy in the low to mid 1's consistently,,,,,, and am very close, just may be there with that 25.0 grain load? The 23.1 grain load is accurate enough, but it aint going to compete in the condition we shoot are matches in at 3100 fps.


I have decided to take this challenge and be the odd man out. Trust me every BR shooter pushes the 6ppc to its limits, knowing there are faster cartridges, and understanding they can't deliver the accuracy needed to compete. Those cartridges are great for varmints, but won't even see the top 20 list on most serious BR matches.
Cartridges I speak of have too much recoil?

All the various forms of 222 improved, 223 improved, and if you’re willing to deal with the brass, 222mag and its improved variants. Use any of them and you no longer have one load that gets you to 3400fps, you have fifty. And you can exceed 3400fps. And you can reach 3400fps with 55’s. I’ve done 3300 with a 64gr from a 223AI. Neck any of them up to 6mm if you want.

If you can get that deuce to shoot well at 3400, and have room to tune on any given day, then more power to you, but if you need 3400fps, there are better ways to do it, and they did it in all of those ways in benchrest competition for decades. Not many people shot a plain deuce and your need for velocity is exactly the reason.
 
No doubt I have already got enough accuracy and at 3350 fps one hell of a Varmint load. But BR is so much more demanding.
For sure, I have no paradigm for benchrest, never shot it but knew a few fellows that did. It's a different world of precision and I admire those fellows' dedication, attention to meticulous detail, and mental toughness. I've learned a few valuable things from these guys even for my modest form of precision shooting and I am indebted to them.
 
I am surprised at the velocities you are achieving - seemingly HIGH! :eek:
That said, via H-322 (EXTREME), I'd bet that, sans excessive pressure, the .222 will become happier with all the cases will hold. With the EXTREME version (H-322), my experience has been, that beginning LOW and working up, groups are ugly, then show promise, and, unless/until, "pressured out", continue to shoot smaller until no room remains for more. Once you get the charge nailed, it may be worth revisiting/tweaking the seating dept.
As we discussed, I don't, "like" jump, but the .224 barrels seem to . . . ;)RG
 
Fun thread. We’ve been seeing more and more 222 threads, it’s nice to see the old triple deuce get some attention. I don’t shoot competition but I enjoy 222s. Old Sako’s, Krico, Remingtons, Steyrs, Winchester, Customs, whatever it may be, I’ve had several shoot bug holes. The cartridge never gets old , at least to me. Nice write up wildcatter, hope you and that rifle give them hell at your upcoming matches!
 
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Some years ago, Dennis Thornbury took an old benchrest rifle out of his gun safe, and just for the fun, to do something different, shot it, a sleeved XP100 or 600 (I forget)at a well attended short range group match at the Visalia range. He won the two gun, shooting against a field of rifles with custom actions. In the hands of a skilled shooter, never discount what a duce can do. For those who did not know him I believe that there is still a worlds record in the book with his name on it. He had plenty of custom actioned 6PPCs at the time. I believe that he put on sanctioned matches at the Visalia range for over 30 years, and served as the president of the NBRSA for a dozen years. When he passed, we lost a very good man.
 
I am surprised at the velocities you are achieving - seemingly HIGH! :eek:
That said, via H-322 (EXTREME), I'd bet that, sans excessive pressure, the .222 will become happier with all the cases will hold. With the EXTREME version (H-322), my experience has been, that beginning LOW and working up, groups are ugly, then show promise, and, unless/until, "pressured out", continue to shoot smaller until no room remains for more. Once you get the charge nailed, it may be worth revisiting/tweaking the seating dept.
As we discussed, I don't, "like" jump, but the .224 barrels seem to . . . ;)RG
I am quite surprised myself, I was hoping 3200 with this 21.5" barrel was being too optimistic. I am now over thinking those who tell me you can go to long on barrel to the point of loosing velocity. Different in every caliber of course.

Years ago on my first bench gun (a 6BR .085" short) Fred Sinclair expressed short and stiff. Telling me anything over 19 was good. That rifle was 20" at wieght, LV. But it shortly became a ppc and 19.5" and instantly started taking names.

But my how things have changed today! Back then you would have been comited if you told others you were stuffing 30.2 grains of N133 in a 6ppc. But today it's a common winning charge on many days charge with the 68's.

This is what told me go slow,,, but keep going till you see that sign of to much pressure. It's just part of what we need to do today to stay competetive. The real indication I'm going in the right condition is its the first time I'm seeing extreme spreads under 20 to 40 fps!

And yes it is the new "extreme" H322. I might not have to start over with Benchmark like we talked. But with one week before the first match of the season,,, I'll run with the 23.1 grain load if this load around the 25 grain charge don't pan out. But the way this powder has acted starting at 22.5 and working up, it sure looks promising?

Time will tell as tomorrow shows good testing conditions to get that answer. That would be nice because then it looks like good practice conditions the rest of the week with some clouds and wind 5 to 15 with afternoon gusty conditions.

But like I said, we're having fun!
 
I am surprised at the velocities you are achieving - seemingly HIGH! :eek:
That said, via H-322 (EXTREME), I'd bet that, sans excessive pressure, the .222 will become happier with all the cases will hold. With the EXTREME version (H-322), my experience has been, that beginning LOW and working up, groups are ugly, then show promise, and, unless/until, "pressured out", continue to shoot smaller until no room remains for more. Once you get the charge nailed, it may be worth revisiting/tweaking the seating dept.
As we discussed, I don't, "like" jump, but the .224 barrels seem to . . . ;)RG
Virtually all my experiences with .224 cal ( irregardless of cartridge) showed they performed better with jump.
 
I’ve only shot the deuce in one two gun in the HV stage. The rest are single day single yardages pre-loaded with 133. I shot scot322 in the two gun and agree with Randi, the more I added the better it got. If I was good on my timing and good with the flags it was pretty fun especially since it’s a cream puff in the bags in a HV. I have no idea what I was shooting for weight but the by the end of the 200 yard stage my 20 cases were toast. Trust your flags and sighters and don’t freak out when your first record goes for a ride.
 

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