NRA Poised to Approve Suppressors in Competition?

[DE-F-Open]

For various reasons NRA has consistently denied the use of suppressors in NRA High Power Rifle competition.

That may soon change....maybe...

Please see the article that is attached as a pdf file. A similar article was previously posted to Ammoland.com

John Sigler
F-Class High Master (MR & LR)
Member U.S. F-Class Rifle (Open) Teams (2017 & 2023)
International Distinguished Badge #67

 

[Andy Legg]

Hi John,

Good Read! I have a couple thoughts.

NRA has already allowed suppressors in competition for the AR-Tactical Mid-Range Prone Classes (there were several at the Mid Range National Matches this year) and I would love to see them allowed for all High Power Classes (in states where legal of-course).

As far as a benefit analysis.

• I have seen rifles shoot better/tighter groups with a suppressor, but in all cases I believe these rifles would have benefited from a Tuner (No Unfair Advantage as long as Tuners are allowed…..Tuners are currently NOT Allowed in AR-Tactical).
• I have heard (read on the internet) that suppressors can Increase Muzzle Velocity…..but in testing with my rifles and suppressors, I have not seen a measurable difference that could not be attributed to other factors (barrel temperature, ammo lying in the sun or something of the sort). I am open to this being a perceived advantage…but generally speaking Hand Loaded ammo could be tailored to give the same target velocity.
• On the other hand, Mirage (down range) can be horrible to deal with at times and with the 20 plus shot stings of fire in High Power…the Heat coming off a Suppressor can only make this situation worse. It may even result in a false wind reading if not utilizing a Spotting Scope (Which I feel should not be allowed in the AR-Tactical Discipline).
• The more suppressors that are in “Common Use for Lawful Purposes” and the more exposure they get (i.e. they are NOT Hollywood quiet on High Powered Rifles but do help protect us from hearing damage) the better off we (gun community) will be.

I am curious what other folks thoughts are on this topic.

Andy Legg

 

[distinguished]

Great way to make the sport even more expensive and to have the ATF be able to check up on you. No thanks.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

They put off so much mirage I highly doubt you will see many.

 

[LVLAaron]

I see no benefit.

 

[Andy Legg]

Great way to make the sport even more expensive and to have the ATF be able to check up on you. No thanks.

Hi Distinguished,

I have heard this before (that the BATFE can visit your home requesting to see your Registered NFA Items at anytime), but non of the folks I am friends with (all have owned suppressors and many other NFA Items for many years in the somewhat free state of Texas) have never experienced being checked-up on by the BATFE (with the exceptions of the mandatory FFL 07’s Audits of-course).

This could be a potential issue/barrier for the NRA Competitions but I don’t believe it would result in an unfair advantage…..Actually, I agree with Alex in believing competition wise use of a suppressor could likely be a Disadvantage.

Not saying that the BATFE Check-Up’s are not a thing, just never experienced it nor aware of anyone that has.

Andy Legg

 

[Heman]

Hi Distinguished,

I have heard this before (that the BATFE can visit your home requesting to see your Registered NFA Items at anytime), but non of the folks I am friends with (all have owned suppressors and many other NFA Items for many years in the somewhat free state of Texas) have never experienced being checked-up on by the BATFE (with the exceptions of the mandatory FFL 07’s Audits of-course).

This could be a potential issue/barrier for the NRA Competitions but I don’t believe it would result in an unfair advantage…..Actually, I agree with Alex in believing competition wise use of a suppressor could likely be a Disadvantage.

Not saying that the BATFE Check-Up’s are not a thing, just never experienced it nor aware of anyone that has.

Andy Legg

Andy,
I'm an 07/SOT. Unlike a firearm transfer where the only way they would get the address is from the 4473 the Form 4s do have the address on them. Since these are done electronically (or when they were sent in) they could have the list of where stuff is.
Now from talking with my agent over the years and he is a down to earth normal guy from my area. They have more important stuff to worry about and don't have the man power just to go popping into peoples houses to check their stuff. They would have to have a warrant even if they did.
Example when I get inspected I have to show them everything that is on the books. They have a list of what I should have and what my books should say. My shop has a separate address from my home, but I keep stuff offsite. When they come for inspection I bring stuff out to the shop and show them. Legally they can't go searching my home unless there is a warrant. The warrant would be if I was suspected of doing something stupid like making stuff off the books. While suppressors are NFA they aren't the ones that get the agents excited. Those would be machine guns and Glock switches. Every week the ATF news emails are talking about people getting caught with those. The want to see the machine guns first and you better have them. Been told by people that if you don't have them, you have a rather short amount of time to produce them before things get exciting. He asks and I always show those first.

Now what would possibly get someone a visit by the ATF is if they're at the local range blabbing about having an illegal machine gun, suppressor etc. or doing something to bring attention to themselves. For anyone who has gone through the correct legal steps they aren't going to get a visit. The whole process is a rather extensive FBI background check and thats why the tax stamp gets approved. Same goes if you don't have one in a trust and its laying on the table and only your wife is home. Technically yes that is a violation because she has access and isn't permitted to. BUT they're not going to come busting down your door just to check if its on the kitchen table when your wife is home and your not.

Now as far as them in competition we've allowed them since we started shooting F-Practical, some guys occasionally do, but the mirage off of them is an issue.

Personally this is a nothing burger and just an attempt at misguided individual's (including the OP) to say "Hey we are cool man. We are with the times." It has no benefit for shooting that we do and doesn't help improve anything.

 

[Monte F]

Hi John,

Good Read! I have a couple thoughts.

NRA has already allowed suppressors in competition for the AR-Tactical Mid-Range Prone Classes (there were several at the Mid Range National Matches this year) and I would love to see them allowed for all High Power Classes (in states where legal of-course).

As far as a benefit analysis.

• I have seen rifles shoot better/tighter groups with a suppressor, but in all cases I believe these rifles would have benefited from a Tuner (No Unfair Advantage as long as Tuners are allowed…..Tuners are currently NOT Allowed in AR-Tactical).
• I have heard (read on the internet) that suppressors can Increase Muzzle Velocity…..but in testing with my rifles and suppressors, I have not seen a measurable difference that could not be attributed to other factors (barrel temperature, ammo lying in the sun or something of the sort). I am open to this being a perceived advantage…but generally speaking Hand Loaded ammo could be tailored to give the same target velocity.
• On the other hand, Mirage (down range) can be horrible to deal with at times and with the 20 plus shot stings of fire in High Power…the Heat coming off a Suppressor can only make this situation worse. It may even result in a false wind reading if not utilizing a Spotting Scope (Which I feel should not be allowed in the AR-Tactical Discipline).
• The more suppressors that are in “Common Use for Lawful Purposes” and the more exposure they get (i.e. they are NOT Hollywood quiet on High Powered Rifles but do help protect us from hearing damage) the better off we (gun community) will be.

I am curious what other folks thoughts are on this topic.

Andy Legg

This is from the 2024 NRA High Power Rulebook, AR-Tactical section.

 

[Richard Jones]

"They would have to have a warrant..." Lots of folks don't know this. They can't just march into your gun room without one (at least, legally).

ETA: To the NRA: Either allow suppressors or not, based upon technical issues with regards to rifles and peoples hearing. It is and should be up to the individual shooter to figure out if it's legal or not. We are (most of us) smart enough to figure it out. If you want, put a disclaimer in regs: It is up to the individual to comply with all firearms laws and the NRA is not responsible for any of that stuff....

Guys that shoot suppressor-legal matches: Have you ever seen an ATF agent there? Just curious...

 

[davidjoe]

I hope that the NRA permits their usage in matches. Suppressors are not controversial in many other countries. Assuming the NRA would desire to see their accessibility here someday, without fees and burdensome paperwork, HP rifle matches are a highly visible and flattering display of suppressors’ positive attributes to lawmakers.

Hearing loss is the remaining danger in perfectly operating rifles, at a perfectly run match. I’m sure that nearest neighborhood to the gun range, wherever it is, wouldn’t mind several canned guns being interspersed on the line, either. Those guys that would choose to use them are doing the rest of us a favor.

 

[Andy Legg]

View attachment 1618223
This is from the 2024 NRA High Power Rulebook, AR-Tactical section.

Hi Monte,

There were several suppressors in use at this years NRA Mid Range Nationals in the AR Tactical Catagory.

Unfortunately , there is an oversight/typo in the 2024 NRA High Power Rule Book regarding Use of Suppressors in AR Tactical (Page 69 Section 3.3.3 Subsection H).

Please reference the Top of Page 70 (Section 3.16.1) where it is stated that Suppressors are Provisionally Allowed for use in AR Tactical competition until February 2026.


3.16.1 Compensators, Muzzle Brakes, and Sound Suppressors.

Sound suppressors are authorized for use in AR Tactical Rifle competition provisionally for three (3) years commencing February 1,2023 and ending February 1, 2026. Note: Competitors are reminded that they are responsible for obeying all laws pertaining to owning and use of suppressors."


Andy Legg

 

[memilanuk]

So... we can use (provisionally) suppressors in MR AR Tactical, but are still saddled by the retarded rule about not being able to use a SLED to (in theory) promote the use of mag length ammo, while not actually *requiring* it.

Got it.

 

[Heman]

"They would have to have a warrant..." Lots of folks don't know this. They can't just march into your gun room without one (at least, legally).

ETA: To the NRA: Either allow suppressors or not, based upon technical issues with regards to rifles and peoples hearing. It is and should be up to the individual shooter to figure out if it's legal or not. We are (most of us) smart enough to figure it out. If you want, put a disclaimer in regs: It is up to the individual to comply with all firearms laws and the NRA is not responsible for any of that stuff....

Guys that shoot suppressor-legal matches: Have you ever seen an ATF agent there? Just curious...

No,
Again the ATF isn't going to go around checking up on you on suppressors anymore than say the FBI/ATI/State Police of forbidden semi auto states are going to go to matches to see who from the communist states are shooting service rifles. Like I said anytime you get a visit is if you do something to bring attention to yourself and they get a warrant.

As a dealer there is a lot of tin foil hat thinking when it comes to them.

 

[LVLAaron]

So... we can use (provisionally) suppressors in MR AR Tactical, but are still saddled by the retarded rule about not being able to use a SLED to (in theory) promote the use of mag length ammo, while not actually *requiring* it.

Got it.

Is not having a sled in an AR really a big deal? Set the round on top of the mag hit the bolt release. Works every time.

 

[Andy Legg]

So... we can use (provisionally) suppressors in MR AR Tactical, but are still saddled by the retarded rule about not being able to use a SLED to (in theory) promote the use of mag length ammo, while not actually *requiring* it.

Got it.

Hi Memilanuk,

I hear ya on the Mag Length Ammo and Sleds…..that said I have never seen anyone at NRA or CMP competitions protested for use of a Sled or Ammo Longer than Mag Length.

To be ”Safe” when we travel to shoot at AR Tactical Matches we always bring Mag Length Ammo and Harris Bipods. Additionally, we typically only shoot the long loaded 80 SMK’s or 75 ELD-M’s at Long Range (CMP has Long Range AR Tactical Matches at 800-900 & 1000 yards).

IMHO the 77 SMK’s and Nosler Custom Competition bullets loaded at 2.260” (Mag Length) are plenty good enough out to 600 yards out of a good barrel. At the 2023 NRA Mid-Range Nationals I was able to squeeze out a 2388 (99.50%) over the four day event with a home built rifle and a Primary Arms 14x Scope…..I‘d rather be lucky than good any day

Again, I agree with you regarding the rules could/should be clearer, but in the end I would recommend not getting too caught up in some of the nuances. It is a lot of fun to shoot and can be much less expensive than some of the other categories.

How about the Suppressors….do you think the NRA “dipping their toe in the water” with allowing the use in AR Tactical could be the door opening for use in other categories?

Andy Legg

 

[Monte F]

Hi Monte,

There were several suppressors in use at this years NRA Mid Range Nationals in the AR Tactical Catagory.

Unfortunately , there is an oversight/typo in the 2024 NRA High Power Rule Book regarding Use of Suppressors in AR Tactical (Page 69 Section 3.3.3 Subsection H).

Please reference the Top of Page 70 (Section 3.16.1) where it is stated that Suppressors are Provisionally Allowed for use in AR Tactical competition until February 2026.


3.16.1 Compensators, Muzzle Brakes, and Sound Suppressors.

Sound suppressors are authorized for use in AR Tactical Rifle competition provisionally for three (3) years commencing February 1,2023 and ending February 1, 2026. Note: Competitors are reminded that they are responsible for obeying all laws pertaining to owning and use of suppressors."


Andy Legg

Andy,

I had not scrolled down far enough to see that new provisional rule. I still believe it is of no benefit to use one with long strings of fire with the heat distortion coming off of it. I stopped shooting AR tactical to concentrate on F-TR, mostly long range to get my Master or High Master classification.

Monte F

 

[Heman]

Hi Memilanuk,

I hear ya on the Mag Length Ammo and Sleds…..that said I have never seen anyone at NRA or CMP competitions protested for use of a Sled or Ammo Longer than Mag Length.

To be ”Safe” when we travel to shoot at AR Tactical Matches we always bring Mag Length Ammo and Harris Bipods. Additionally, we typically only shoot the long loaded 80 SMK’s or 75 ELD-M’s at Long Range (CMP has Long Range AR Tactical Matches at 800-900 & 1000 yards).

IMHO the 77 SMK’s and Nosler Custom Competition bullets loaded at 2.260” (Mag Length) are plenty good enough out to 600 yards out of a good barrel. At the 2023 NRA Mid-Range Nationals I was able to squeeze out a 2388 (99.50%) over the four day event with a home built rifle and a Primary Arms 14x Scope…..I‘d rather be lucky than good any day

Again, I agree with you regarding the rules could/should be clearer, but in the end I would recommend not getting too caught up in some of the nuances. It is a lot of fun to shoot and can be much less expensive than some of the other categories.

How about the Suppressors….do you think the NRA “dipping their toe in the water” with allowing the use in AR Tactical could be the door opening for use in other categories?

Andy Legg

NRA rules be damned I allow sleds.
As far as mag length ammo who cares.
It is supposed to be like service rifle with a bipod. Service rifle allows sleds and ammo longer than 2.260". My mag length on my SR is 2.350" or maybe longer forget what it is. (Bob Gill internal mod, 80s at mag length are nice)

They wrote conveluted rules that made it more difficult than saying Service rifle with a bipod, go shoot.

Just like CMP should have said Palma is only .223/.308 and iron sights and stopped the whole ICFRA crap.

 

[jelenko]

Is not having a sled in an AR really a big deal? Set the round on top of the mag hit the bolt release. Works every time.

I think a little more care is needed with a standard mag so the round doesn't roll to one side and get angled.

 

[Richard Jones]

No,
Again the ATF isn't going to go around checking up on you on suppressors anymore than say the FBI/ATI/State Police of forbidden semi auto states are going to go to matches to see who from the communist states are shooting service rifles. Like I said anytime you get a visit is if you do something to bring attention to yourself and they get a warrant.

As a dealer there is a lot of tin foil hat thinking when it comes to them.

You missed the point, but that's maybe on me. I should have been clearer and less facetious. Not sure what the 'No' is for at the beginning of your post. No, what?

Again, my opinion is that the NRA should be making their decision based solely on whether suppressors would be beneficial as to providing increased hearing protection without giving an unfair advantage to those not using them. They don't need to get into the politics or legal fluffery. That would be my business. I don't need more Big Brother and I sure don't need them 'protecting' me from myself. From their recent actions, my bet is that there is an underlying reason for doing what they're doing and it's probably all based upon protecting themselves. You don't really think they're worried about us, do you?

 

[DR_2297]

I’m afraid a can and cover would obscure the front sight of my Palma rifle so it’s gotta be a No for me dawg.