Node Theory

[johara1]

Fergus, You hit the nail on the head. I test at 100 because with the flags i can see what is going on and i shoot in the same condition. After i develop a good load i will test the load under different conditions head and tail winds left and right to see how the combination reacts to the condition change. Right now i have the best combination i ever had, so i now check the quality of the barrels i will use for the upcoming year. This is simple, have your point of impact below your point of aim and hold the same point of aim for 180 wind conditions of about 10mph. and see if get a big hole or a weather report. if you get a hole take it off and mark it for the national and screw on an other one and test it, the smaller the hole the better. If they string them out it may be so wind sensitive it isn't worth messing with a small amount of stringing maybe average, you will get the picture after you try it a few times and with different barrels. Remember when you have a hummer don't waste it and the wind will be your friend…… jim

 

[Blaster-37]

Fergus, You hit the nail on the head. I test at 100 because with the flags i can see what is going on and i shoot in the same condition. After i develop a good load i will test the load under different conditions head and tail winds left and right to see how the combination reacts to the condition change. Right now i have the best combination i ever had, so i now check the quality of the barrels i will use for the upcoming year. This is simple, have your point of impact below your point of aim and hold the same point of aim for 180 wind conditions of about 10mph. and see if get a big hole or a weather report. if you get a hole take it off and mark it for the national and screw on an other one and test it, the smaller the hole the better. If they string them out it may be so wind sensitive it isn't worth messing with a small amount of stringing maybe average, you will get the picture after you try it a few times and with different barrels. Remember when you have a hummer don't waste it and the wind will be your friend…… jim

This is one of the best/ interesting threads on this site. That is some deep advice. thanx Jim.
Basically, if you can't get a tune, how can you get a consistent repeatable group.
Question Jim, how many rounds do you use to break in the barrel before you run this test?

Tony Boyer has said if it does not group in thirty, it does not go to the show. I wish I had his free barrels.
I just get the copper out, run a few more groups and see what it has/likes at 600 and finally 1K in very good conditions. It takes about 100 rounds. If I can make your 100 yd. test work, it would be much better.
I am learning a lot from you guys, thanx for giving it up. Remember to tell us what you are shooting and the distance.
Greg

 

[johara1]

Greg,I just broke in 5 barrels and 3 never made copper, 1 took 3 and one took 9 shots and it quit. the only one i shot was the last one and it shot 2- 5 shot groups in the mid zero's with the same rds. left from the last 1000 yd. match,so i tried it in my wind test and it shot a small hole ,so i shot under 30 and it sent me a message. It will rest till the big matches……. jim

 

[Blaster-37]

Jim,
Nice percentage. What barrels are you shooting? Dasher-right?
This winter I am exploring Bartlein 5R for the hybrids and some new brand cut barrels.
Have you guys ever made the 5R work for the 6mm Dasher? If so, how hard did you push them?
Greg

 

[johara1]

Greg, I have had the best luck with the Brux barrels, I do have a Rock Creek and a Douglas i won….. The Douglas is the hummer i Had both 5r's and 4 groove Bartlein barrels and Kreigers some shot and some didn't……. jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

I think everyone understands that there is less uncontrollable elements effecting at 100 yards then 1000, I haven't bought into the what works at 100 works at 1k though.. Otherwise everyone would be shooting 6 ppc and 30br at 1k.

 

[FergusBailey]

I think everyone understands that there is less uncontrollable elements effecting at 100 yards then 1000, I haven't bought into the what works at 100 works at 1k though.. Otherwise everyone would be shooting 6 ppc and 30br at 1k.

I have not seen anyone on this thread say that the most accurate cartridge at 100 yards will also be the most accurate at 1000 yards.

What I believe a number of people with proven competition results have said is that a cartridge capable of being competitive at 1000 yards can be tuned at 100 yards and that tune will also work at 1000 yards. I.e. the tune is not range specific and therefore tuning at closer range removes many variables and gives a more easily interpreted view of the tune than would be the case at longer range.

That certainly mirrors my experience.

 

[johara1]

Ray, I think you should rethink it. If i can make it shoot in a .1 at 100 yds.it will carry this to 1000 with out any condition change. The chance of that happening is slim to none. So the best i've come up with is 2" at 1000. You can not see the the changes under that but not saying it won't happen and shoot a small one. To try to tune out there at longer ranges is futile, you can't see what is happening good enough and all you do is wear out a barrel…… jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

You may be right and probably are but I believe there is more to shooting 1k then 100 yard load development. I gotta believe component consistency is much more vital at 1k then 100 yards. How many shooters have a Whidden Bullet Pointing Die for 100 yard bench rest?

 

[johara1]

Ray, You are right, the loading practice and components i use make the 100 yd groups smaller. I use Spencer 103's trimmed and pointed on Hoovers tools. Then sorted by bearing surface of +-.0005. Powder is weighed on a GD503 to .01 and i use RL-15. Necks are turned to .0102. Neck tension is held to 2lb. on a K&M force indicator. Seating depth is held to .0005. i use a Juenke machine on the bullets also . This is why my 100 yd groups are so small and the 1000 yd. ones are small and consistent…….. jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

Your running your neck tension to 2lb variance? How many odd balls do you end up with that? Your also spinning your bullets, Have you tried spinning AMP jacketed Hornady's they claim have more consistent jackets?

 

[johara1]

Ray, I find that i have 3 sets the middle and the largest group will run 30-32 and lower27-29 and a higher one 33-35, i color code them at the end of the bullets,so they don't get mixed up and i shoot them together as a group. i get a odd ball once in a while and it will be a fouler. I spin only Spencers 103's, BIB 104's and Berger 105 H….. jim

 

[Blaster-37]

I don't want to hijack this thread but for a Juenke discovery. I have seen many asking for one.
I was at a local gun show yesterday and a retired bench rest shooter had one for sale along with some stocks and other items. Most of it typical except for the Juenke. He said he had not used it since he had it recalibrated years ago. If you need one, maybe I can put you together with the seller. I use mine to often to loan it out, don't ask.
I now return you back to your regular scheduled programming, " Node Theory".
Greg