For me a bushing die increases the chance that the neck will be out of alignment with the case. The bushings have enough clearance to move and that means they can twist or be off center and transfer that to the case. I don't have any idea how often that happens but it is one more variable to deal with.
No neck tension with Whidden non-bushing resizing dies
- Thread starter Tom3006
- Start date
Funny you mention that, I just worked through that recently with two different cartridges and die set ups.
1. Last night, loading 6.5x47 using a Redding FL bushing die. I have been using the practice of leaving a bit of a gap in the stem of the die so the bushing would float; read it somewhere.... For whatever reason, I decided to measure the concentricity. The fired brass was inside of .001. My just-sized case necks were .005!!! I screwed the stem all the way down leaving no play and re-sized them. The sized necks returned to inside .001. Simple to control, just screw the stem down.
2. A couple of months ago I switched to a neck only bushing die for .284W b/c it seemed to size more of the neck than the FL die. My accuracy deteriorated. I called Redding complaining about the fact that my FL die wasn't sizing enough of the neck. I thought I checked everything before I called. They were polite but were obviously dubious and offered to ship the die to them to have it checked out. I checked again after the phone call and realized I hadn't used the little spacer nut under the stem(i don't use the decapping pin or rod). Therefore the bushing was allowed to float up into the die. I added the spacer and the die sized %90 of the neck and my .284W returned to regular .3's. I called them back to admit my mistake and they mentioned that a lot of folks are seeing better case concentricity using FL dies and there has been a movement back to them from the neck/ body die combo. Since then, I have only purchased FL bushing dies.
If you use the dies correctly, they work well.
Two different methods:
1. Uniform the necks with an expander mandrel to even out dents from STM tumbling and possibly getting stepped on at the match, then reduce the neck to final desired size and "tension" using a bushing while the case is supported by the FL die walls.
2. Reduce the neck using a non-bushing, conventional die setup, possibly leaving some of the dings and dents, then drag an expander ball through the neck while it isn't supported by the FL walls to uniform and bring it back up to size that may or may not match your neck/ bullet thickness very well.
There is a lot less brass work in the first method b/c the necks are already expanded from firing and the mandrel doesn't even really stretch the brass unless it is already out of uniformity from handling. Often times, if I am shooting in a controlled environment and I am confident my necks aren't out of round, I'll simply omit this step all-together. Currently, until I learn otherwise, my thought is that concentricity is better and more consistently achieved by resizing/ forming the final case dimensions by the "shell" or walls of the die rather than by dragging a ball through the neck while the case is being pulled by the shellholder which may induce slop via the loose shellholder/ case head fit or the ram being even if slightly off axis. Perhaps those last two compenents take a lot of control for uniformity out of the die's hands vs final fitting being achieved inside the die ......and then perhaps the allowance for play in the shellholder allows the case to self-center on the expander ball. At this point, I am just opting for less work on the brass.
It's kind of an interesting discussion. Does play or slop allow components to self-center or does it create inconsistencies? Probably depends on the situ. Perhaps the best option is a FL honed die to your specific measurements ... Just hope your brass neck thicknesses never change from lot to lot or BPT to always neck turn.
Down the rabbit hole was hilarious and I might benefit someday but my straightest rounds have all been made with Lee collet neck dies. I'm not buying anymore bushing neck dies as they've been consistently mediocre in regards to runout . I improved my bushed sized runout buy not just trimming in my Wilson trimmer but chamfering the neck in it also but they're still not perfect under a thousandth total runout like my Lee Collet die. Am I the only one who has had this experience ?
When the brass is fired it takes on the dimension of the chamber. It should have little run out. When you size brass that is not neck turned it will make the inside out of round. The thicker will push in farther. Now the bullet is off axis. Thus will show more runout. Matt
Hmmm...good point. I'm going to go measure bullet run-out right now..
Unfortunately, if i find excessive run-out it could be from two or three other factors as well.....Well I measure the loaded round bullet run-out and they all stayed Within .002 with most of them being Within .015.
However the more I think about it, your assessment about uneven neck thickness is spot-on. But that really is a case neck and neck turning issue and not specific to one particular die bc the thix spots get pushed to the inside during firing or regardless of the type of die. I would think the best method for that is an inside neck reamer which I have used on occasion. As long as your chamber neck is small enough or to Simply neck turn prior to shooting.
However the more I think about it, your assessment about uneven neck thickness is spot-on. But that really is a case neck and neck turning issue and not specific to one particular die bc the thix spots get pushed to the inside during firing or regardless of the type of die. I would think the best method for that is an inside neck reamer which I have used on occasion. As long as your chamber neck is small enough or to Simply neck turn prior to shooting.
If I was shooting medium and long range targets I would have chambers that required turning the necks. I am a hunter using rifles with "standard" chambers and if I was to turn the necks on my brass it would cause; 1. cases that would rest even further from the axis of the barrel, and 2. causing more working of the brass which would shorten the life of my cases. As it is I do what I can to keep the cartridge centered in the chamber by sizing only part of the neck so the cartridge is supported at the front and rear of the chamber. It seems to work for me, in my rifles, and within the sub-MOA that I require.
That is 100% a Whidden Bushing die, know im 6 years late, but def is
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Hopefully he got lucky and did indeed get a bushing die instead of having to get one later
Dave M.
F-Open Class shooter (284 win, 6dasher, 6.5-7PRCW)
Question really is, does it have any effect on the target?? My experience and testing say no. For this reason, I stopped measuring runout a long time ago. You can drive yourself max measuring runout. Do me a favor, shoot a 20 shoot group with your best (lowest) runout rounds, and another 20 shot group with you worst (highest) runoff rounds. See what the target tells you.Hmmm...good point. I'm going to go measure bullet run-out right now..
Dave
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