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No love for the Winchester/FN model 70?

Sorry if this has already been covered. I didn't catch it during my forum topic search.

I have an opportunity to pick up a new Winchester model 70 coyote/varmint suppressor ready in .243 at what I think is a pretty reasonable price.

I didn't see much discussion on these FNH manufactured model 70 SA action rifles. For those of you that own them, I'd appreciate your input, especially if you have their MOA trigger.

To this point, my only 'modern' bolt actions are savages and a pre-64 70 featherweight in .264WM. The TactiCOOL forums seem to think quite highly of the FNH SPR and TSR rifles, which this rifle shares the action.

Thank you in advance for your courteous and knowledgeable replies.
 
Trigg;

I have not seen that particular rifle by Win., but take exception to the fact they have included the Letters FN at all.

I have an FN, (Fabrique Nationale) Mauser in .270 made in Belgium in the early 50's. Win. has no business infringing on that wonderfull actions name.

It's no secret that our Govt. copied the mauser design with their 03-a3. Then along came Win. who in turn copied the wonderfull bolt with the positive feed feature in the late 60's. Because of that reason, I will not own one, but you suit yourself.

Joe
 
I have built several tactical rifles on the very fine FN actions. They are as good as any factory non custom action on the market. The chrome lined barrels, that they put on their tactical rifles, are problems but the actions are great.
 
I have an FN, (Fabrique Nationale) Mauser in .270 made in Belgium in the early 50's. Win. has no business infringing on that wonderfull actions name.

Oh dear! As a Brit and so outside of this potential argument, I reckon you've likely kicked a hornets nest over here. Millions of Americans much more likely reckon that these foreign interlopers ruined the fine Winchester reputation rather than the other way around.

The truth of the matter is that the FN Joe thinks of no longer exists and hasn't for many, many years. It became FNH (FN-Herstal) and is a multinational that combines many countries' former arms manufacturers, and it has been for many years, operating plants around the world. FNH-USA was created to tap into the huge US market with a locally based operation, and this was in effect essential to pick up US Department of Defence contracts which FNH-USA has done in a big way. Many of the US Army and USMC's primary weapons are FNH designed and manufactured in-country by FNH-USA. It also undertakes major refurbishment and modernisation work on US military weapons including (I think) its .50BMG calibre M2 heavy machineguns.

So far as Winchester goes, my take on this - and I stand to be corrected by Winchester aficionados - is that the rifle manufacturing part, by now called the US Repeating Arms Corporation, was an outfit that had fallen on hard times and whose reputation based on its long and excellent past based on the Winchester name was much better than it deserved at the time FNH-USA bought it. I also understand that FNH-USA couldn't buy the famous name, only the right to use it. The famous Winchester, now USRAC, New haven plant was a shadow of its former self and had been starved of investment and up to date machinery for many years at the time of the purchase.

At some point not too long after buying 'Winchester' / US Repeating Arms Corp., FNH-USA announced that all production would cease at New Haven and any models retained, or subsequently introduced, would be manufactured in its plants elsewhere including a new one to be set up in the US South. This didn't do much for the morale of the New haven workforce or improve an already mixed product quality.

Many Winchester 70 models made in the final year or two of New haven operation were frankly poor. I had a 70 'Stealth' in .243WSSM that was not a great advert for the company. The FN SPR rifles - of which I also own one from that period with a fantastic McMillan A5 stock as OEM - were a very different matter. They used selected M70 WSM receiver bodies with a one-off 308 bolt-face pre-64 type bolt, the bought-in McMillan stock, a barrel which came from another FNH-USA factory and the barrelled actions were assembled and checked in a special workshop within the New Haven plant that only made SPRs. I read that the marriage of the barrelled actions and stocks plus the bedding work was done elsewhere even before the New Haven closure. Manufacture of the SPR was transferred to FNH-USA's new and modern facility after the New Haven closure and continues to this day.

Why did FNH-USA call the SPR an FN rather than a 'Winchester'. I'd speculate that was partly because FNH-USA's reputation was much higher than USRAC / Winchester's at that time, but perhaps more pertinently that the rifle in its various versions and packages was marketed to potential military and law enforcement buyers and with the company's growing presence in the US military supply business, the FN name fitted the bill neatly.

While I was unimpressed by my 70 Stealth, the SPR from the same period was and is a stunningly good rifle. I still have it, since fitted out with a Jewell trigger and rebarreled with a 5R Bartlein to .260 Rem, and it is a really good shooting - and nice to shoot - rifle. I've no experience of other Winchester brand rifles that have since been introduced, but I'd expect them to be much better quality than the late New Haven examples.
 
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laurie;

You have done your homework. I am impressed with your total knowledge of this. Certainly more than I have/had.

But then....I wouldn't expect any less from a Brit. I shoot with some of them at the "Super Shoot" in Ohio every year during the month of May.
Additionaly, no one is ever "outside" of any potential argument. A mind is a mind, no matter from where.

Good shooting,

Joe
www.benchrest.com/maisto
 
Joe,

I'm sure your 1950s FN is a real gem - FN did make some great sporting Mausers for years after WW2. I bet I don't have to tell you to hang onto it like grim death! Many years ago, I fancied the FN Mauser '98 action 7.62mm sniper / target rifle which was probably their last model to use this action, but I never heard of one for sale at the time - did see one advertised finally a year or so back at a collector's-only price, but it's too late nowadays.

I believe their extra-length 'Magnum' models for African and other dangerous game rifles are still highly prized today. I have both editions of Terry Wieland's book on dangerous game rifles and cartridges, and must search it out. I do remember the 2nd edition has a lengthy chapter dedicated to Mauser 'Magnum' actions including FN models.

Good shooting. Oh and as benchrester, you might have bumped into my good friend and shooting companion Vince Bottomley from England who attends every BR World Championship meeting. I do most of my shooting at Diggle Ranges in northern England which is now the main venue for GB BR, so we probably have several mutual acquaintances and friends if you meet some of our benchresters.

Laurie
 
Here is the rifle I've purchased: http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/historic-detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535143

Though discontinued, there are still a number of these new available, some (like the one I acquired), at substantial discounts. Enough of a discount I can justify placing it in a McMillan M40 stock with a detachable box magazine... I suspect their lackluster sales may be due in part to the horrible reputation that descended on Winchester at the hands of U.S. Repeating Arms ownership, and partly due to it being a bit of an ugly stock.

Yes Laurie, my mistake, 'FNH' manufactured is correct. The Winchester licensing is held by Olin Corp., licensed to Browning Firearms, a subsidiary of FNH. It's the same action as the FNH TSR and SPR line, a short action Model 70.

I'll post some before and after pictures when I get it back, along with a range report.
 
Ugly??? Think that stock is sexy/beautiful. Each of us are different.

Right now I cherish 4 different Model 70 rifles I both own and always use. All were from the 90's and all have those BOSS brakes on them. They flat out shoot.

I'm a bit surprised you and I guess others, don't like them.
 
I agree with CaptainMal. I have had a number of U.S. Repeating Arms M70's that were very nice rifles and shot well. USRA was making some top notch rifles up till around the time FN purchased them. My take after that was that it must have been decided to make Browning the nice and expensive rifle and Winchester the cheaper one. It became harder and harder to obtain the Classic models, particularly in the larger calibers or with wooden stocks and they heavily pushed the roughly made rifles with blind magazines and plastic stocks that they sold thru the discount stores. I have always felt that the rough stuff we saw out of the Winchester plant the years that FN owned it was the result of deliberate management decisions. The last Shot Show I attended a few years ago in Orlando, I went by FN/Browning/Win. booth and the Mod. 70's I saw on display were not as well machined as rifles out of USRA in the 90's and early 2000's. Just my two cents worth of opinion.
 
I have 3 of the FNH made rifles, an Extreme Weather M70 308, a Stealth II M70 308 & an FNH SPR A2 in 308. The M70's have the MOA trigger, but surprisingly the SPR has the older M70 type trigger. Either one can be worked pretty easily to produce a good, crisp 2# trigger. The barrel that looks the worst with my borescope is the Stealth II, but it is the best shooter of the 3, and it doesn't copper - go figure, huh. I am happy with all these, for what they are, but wish the SPR had a blackened SS barrel instead of the chrome lined unit.
 
Well, got after this rifle a bit. I must say, I didn't care for the thumbhole stock's ergonomics.

Before:



Add:
NOS Sub-Minute Solutions/McMillan M40A1 stock partially inletted for SA M70.
FNH TBM kit.
Fully bed the action, fully free float the barrel.
YHM Phantom.
Farrell 20 mount, Farrell rings for the NXS.



Throw some factory Hornady 75gr. BTHP down range.




Not a bad start. Think it might be a keeper. Now to find a load for it and a population of prairie dogs to feed them to.
 
Well, it looks good - and obviously shoots well, very well, too. The M70 is an excellent action, and your factory barrel must have been a good one too. Thanks for showing it.
 
Thank you Laurie,

I've a Bartlein barrel for it, but the factory FNH .243 barrel seems to do well enough to not mess with it at this time.
 
What are your thoughts on the MOA trigger? I could never get the MOA adjusted to where it felt good enough for me. Certainly no improvement over the original M70 triggers IMHO.

Ended up replacing it with the Timney.
 
Dry,

The M.O.A. trigger is adequate. I'm by no means a trigger aficionado. I'm much more comfortable behind an '03NM or M1ANM with light take up and a crisp 4.5# break.

That being said, I adjusted this trigger out to 2#11oz which resulted in imperceptible take up, creep and over travel . The instructions in the owner's manual were straightforward and pretty much welcomes the new owner to 'have at it'. There's no more this trigger system can give at the hands of someone like me.

It's a fairly agreeable trigger to me, for what it is. Then then again, I've not spent enough time behind truly exceptional triggers to proffer a knowledgeable recommendation, but am quite open to receiving them.
 
"Then then again, I've not spent enough time behind truly exceptional triggers to proffer a knowledgeable recommendation, but am quite open to receiving them."

I tend to like set triggers. That said, I have triggers that break anywhere from 3 oz to 4 lbs. Each has their place and function. Some days it crosses my mind that when it takes 20 or 30 seconds to break a 3 oz trigger, I may be pulling it too slow.... ;D

That's the beauty of shooting, you get to try all sorts of different rifles through a lifetime. Enjoy your M70, it looks like a keeper, and, it's a beauty action to build something with. If you decide to do that at some point.
 
Trigg, what is the model # of that .243. I've looked all over, including FNs site, and can only find their rifles in .308, .300wsm, and one .223. Am I missing something?
 
Laurie said:
This didn't do much for the morale of the New haven workforce or improve an already mixed product quality.

I would add this.

In the later (20-ish) years, Winchester New Haven was forced to hire workers from the dying Connecticut aircraft industries (same union, and seniority union workers in one field, got first choice of jobs in any other industry covered by that union).

Many of the workers at Winchester didn't even like guns - it was just a job until they could find another - the inspectors wouldn't know a well made rifle if they got shot with it.

The custom shop had thousands of AAA+ Presentation grade stock blanks (I saw them and picked through them)... that sat idle because the union refused to let Winchester hire stock makers from outside or gunsmithing schools - they insisted that Winchester "train" a worker from the aircraft industry to be a stock maker, or no stock makers at all (I mean, what's so hard about making a presentation stock, right??).... so getting custom rifles got harder and slower each year.

Then the union and the state of Connecticut started cranking on pressure for higher wages, and higher taxes, but there was no more money.

The union threatened a strike, and Winchester, knowing that they were on a loosing path, decided to fold - they made plans to move, set up the agreements in motion, and lined up everything down south.

Then announced that they were closing.

When they moved, they left behind hundreds of useless workers that hated their jobs, and truck loads of obsolete machinery, as gifts to Connecticut, and they got a fresh start.

I have a 2008 Featherweight that has AAA+ Presentation wood, the action is out standing and the fit and finish is great.

It was a smart move, and the only move that Winchester could make.
 
I'm some what of a Model 70 slut myself. The last 70's I bought were the HBV series. Three years ago I bought a FN SPR. 308. The rifle was a shooter, but to heavy for my liking. I bought a FN TSR 308 liked it so much I bought one in 223. These two rifles were 1/2 MOA right out of the box.
 

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